Majority opposes auto bailout, poll shows

We have just witnessed a mass redistribution of wealth to the financial industry. all of it private industry.  Has it done what was said it would do? NO, was it used as it was said it would be? NO.  Was it a taxpayer hand out to the most wealthy in the country? YES.  Will the auto industry be different? NO.

The only moron here is you, thinking that your failures are always someone else's fault.

The only reason I don't like the Idea of the bail out is because even if we save the US auto Industry We will still owe the next 40 years of taxes to CHINA! Thats who the Government is borrowing all this money from!

Nothing New Here,

I'm spiritual, not religious, never owned a gun in my life and Obama '08 was my motto.  If you are going to be ignorant - at least try to be intelligent...

nothing new...no, those of us who oppose it are opposed to the government getting involved where there is no Constitutional authority for it do so or we oppose socialism-which is the antithesis of what this country was founded on.

btw, the Founding Fathers all had guns, and at diverse times in the discourse regarding the Declaration and Constitution, invoked the name of God or a few Bible passages. so i guess that puts us in good company, eh?

Of course we need the bail out, but why would Amercans suddenly start voting in their own self interest? Why it's down right unAmerican.

We don't need the bailout, we need these companies to restructure and the UAW to stop thinking driving a forklift is a $45 an hour skilled job.  Why is it in the self-interest of $15 an hour worker to vote to support an overpaid $40 an hour worker?

re: justtryintogetby

You do not know what you are talking about. There are no UAW fork lift drivers making 40. per hour. At best UAW members make 28. per hour  and new hires get 14.

Get your facts straight!

As far as I'm concerned they need to fire the CEO's from the top down, suspend all pay raises and bonus's until the debt is paid back in full, with interest. The Union needs to be part of the team to get this under control because they are part of the problem. If they don't/won't do this, let them die.

Of course what's most funny is that 98% of the rightwing anti-labor anti-union guntotin' bible thumpin' yahoos down south who don't want to help the Big 3 are driving     -     SUBURBANS AND TAHOES AND F-150S AND BLAZERS AND EVERY GAS GUZZLING BEHEMOTH BUILT BY THE BIG 3 IN THE LAST 20 YEARS.  I've been in Alabama, Georgia and Florida this past year, and in front of every piece of crap shack is four or five SUVs and oversized pickups.  Not to mention the dirt bikes, and ATVs.  This is just southern viciousness at losing the election and their general hatred of the north for abolitioning slavery and kicking southern butt, something they STILL haven't gotten over (check out the 1-800 billboards in Florida and Georgia about joinuing the sons of the confederacy)

Well, Tom, you are most ungrateful.  We, here in the South built a whole road for you to use.  It is called I-95 North.  If by some chance you find yourself in our neck of the woods, I suggest you use it.  And, by the way, there are just as many SUV, gas guzzlers in the North as in the South.   In my experience, having lived all over this country I have found the North to be a notoriously rude, bigoted place.  Your air of superiority pretty well sums it up.  As Neal Young once said, we don't need you around, anyhow.  So stay put and keep your mouth shut.  There are lots of nice Northerners that get a bad name from you loudmouth louts.

Tom #25.10.  What on earth are you smoking my friend.

Driving SUV's and trucks has something to do with "southern viciousness at losing the election?  Do you realize Obama carried Florida?

Man I want some of your stuff when I want to visit lala land.

Tom, I was raised in the North and moved South. What I've seen - they have the same amount of Bibles and guns.

When GM and Chrysler go under, there will be an increase in the number of people moving (mostly south) to business friendly states. Will you do all Southerners a favor and vow that you won't be one of them. Stay right where you are.

Amen !!!!

Ed McCahill

Get educated...you are totally wrong about foreign contributions.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/automakers.asp

I just don't understand the insanity of continuing to bring up this 9/11 misinformation on every board. BTW, that is one of the definitions of insanity: To keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. Kind of like the US auto industry!

Amen Jim. Tired of hearing this 9/11 garbage (completely false by the way) too.

We have already bailed out the sector that caused this mess. What makes you so sure that automotive industry is guilty of bad behaviour while we continue to reward the true culprits with free money (not a loan as requested by the Big 3)? If you really sit back and look at the facts and figures, this is a thinly disguised attack against the working class's income, as originally described during the Reagan years when it was declared that the average Americans lifestyle must be reduced.

eagle1........pardon me. You are a moron! At the very least, know what you are talking about. Oh, I forgot! This is America! You have the right to be as stupid, as you want to be. Without an industrial base, we have nothing! If you REALLY believe what you're spouting, you need to check some facts. FACT: Without the auto companies, you might very well, be speaking German, or Japanese. FACT: Who were the biggest contributors after 9/11? ANSWER: General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler (approx. $30 million). The next time you think of commenting, know what your talking about! Don't make your IQ so obvious!

B-

Your "fact" is anachronistic.  To assert that the industrial base of the 1940s is as significant a part of American GDP is simply wrong.  The US economy is primarily service based and it's major industrial production is technological, not automobiles.

One of the main problems with the automobile industry is that labor contracts are modeled after those in the 1970s when manufacturing was still a prominent part of GDP.  Global competition has made these obsolete, however organized labor has not advanced its agenda with commerce.  It is very similar to the NEA in education; they are woefully behind in curricular innovation and pedagogical advancement, but stick to an old means in order to keep jobs. 

If labor really was concerned with current economic trends, it would organize internationally.  I sense that it has too much passive racism and xenophobia to promote that.  "Buy American", however, is far in the past.

Fact if Ford, Chrysler and GM donated money, it was donated by the "So Called Fat Cats",  how much of the $30 million did the UAW pony up?  I am betting not one red cent.

The same thing that happend to the rest of us Manufacturing workers over the years(Steel workers, Mill workers, Garment workers, Semiconductor workers, Miners, Air traffic controlers etc.....) We live on what we have left in our savings, we adapt , we get new jobs we servive we move on like the UAW workers will have to do this is life......

And I still havent heard how the big three are going to make it after a bail out the Dealerships are still full of unsold cars and there still cranking out more? What is going to change if they are bailed out?

The Market is Saturated with cars now Why are we still building when we don't need anymore?

mc,

That's exactly the point that I don't see addressed enough! The big three have many months worth of unsold cars already produced. Why in the world should they keep production going, so that they make more of what isn't selling?

If what you are doing is failing, continuing to do more of the same will not bring success!

Jim and mc,

My sentiments exactly. If your product is not selling, don't continue to produce more. Over saturation has killed the industry. Thats Econ 101 . . . supply vs. demand. That is why the Big 3 are failing . . . none of their execs ever took an Econ class.

The American people are tired of the "Oh help me, I can't be responsible and take care of myself," mentality in this country. If you want to look at what is wrong with your companies look within them, the management and union is what your problem is, and it's not the taxpayers place to give them more money to waste as they have in the past. It's so wonderful that the auto industry has built plants in other countries and deprived Americans from jobs all for the sake of making a big profit. So go cry to those other countries and ask them for money, we are done giving.

Denissr,

Spoken like a true democrat and union member. Unfortunately, where you are sadly wrong is that most Americans are not stupid. They realize a bad investment when they see it. Do I think we should have helped out the banking industry with our tax dollars? NOOOOO. What is happening here is that the American tax payer is fed up . . . with wealthy, incompetent pigs running companies into the ground and then asking for our money. "Privatize the gains . . . socialize the losses." Its the American business way. Enough is enough . ..  no bailout, no loans. Suffer like the rest of us.

uh denise? what subsidized foreign cars?  most of them are built in the US.

the credit crunch is only a fraction of detroit's current problems. in good times as well, one or all of them were having difficulties moving inventory. it's the fact that the public doesn't want products that have built in obsolescence, dubious quality, and do not get the mileage the foreign nameplates do. foreign nameplates spend less than half on advertising as the big 3, yet outsell them. ever stop to wonder why?

I'm not a union worker or a fan of the UAW but they have already taken concessions.

Yes the big three has been mismanaged but awhat they are asking is a loan not a gift we the taxpayers gave to the financial industry.

the only solution is to get americans working again,   3 million + jobs lost if the big three collapse is not in the best interest of anyone in this country!!

I'm from Ohio and you can blame the unions,steel and auto and others for being so greedy. Alot of these companies shut down or moved out of America. sad but true. Look at the Hoover Co. They're gone too. Damned shame !

Is an unprofitable company supposed to stay open just so a laborer can have a job?  Who pays the bills?

Hmmm, lets see, ...steel needed a bailout or protection, you said "Screw steel" and the Japs moved in with steel and put the steel companies out of business and out of a job....the Textile industry need help or protection and you said "Screw the textile industry" and the chinese textile companies moved in and the southeast lost jobs....Televisions were made here...Zenith, philco...and we said "Japanese TV's are cheaper" so in order to compete they moved to Japan and Taiwan...Jobs gone....Now, the automakers need help and / or protection and your still saying "Screw the automakers!" And the japanese are already in Ohio...not MANUFACTURING, just ASSEMBLING from imported components. Jobs will be lost, a lot of jobs....do you want to keep repeating history OHIO??

"Is an unprofitable company supposed to stay open just so a laborer can have a job? Who pays the bills?"

No they don't have to stay open in America, GM has enough plants around the world to make as much as they want, they can pull manufacturing out of America altogether and do just what the Japanese, Koreans, and Germans are doing...make the parts someplace else and Assemble in the USA. no union to worry about, the retirees get screwed, the debtors get screwed...much less tax base...all your problem is solved huh?

Mike,who would take over these companies and who would buy them ?

Mike...you honestly think Chrysler paid back their loan and the government made $300 Million? What?? This is laughable....Chrysler was allowed to pay 30 cents on the dollar. Who do you think made up the difference.....ummm that would be the U.S. tax payer. It is amazing how people are force-fed elite media hype.

They should be forced into bankruptcy now.....and to answer your question David, by going into bankruptcy it will allow GM to cancel 2/3 of its $60 Billion debt. It will make the sale much more attractive to outside private investors. I'm sure there are a lot waiting to pounce on this opportunity.  

IV I looked at you claim through google and Msn, can't be found...and further more, the US government never actually loaned the money to Chrysler, they backed the loan commercially...everything I came across, even from the Heritage Foundation says the Government made $350,000,000 off the deal.

Care to show your link to your claim?

First of all, did you read the Chrysler Corporation Loan Guarantee Act of 1979? If so, you would know that it required creditors to make certain "concessions" to Chrysler. Second, do you know what is means when something is government loan guaranteed? It means that the government is using the U.S. tax payer as collateral. Therefore the banks jump all over this nonsense because they know that if the company fails to make it's payments, the U.S tax payer will fill the void. We do this crap all the time with our loans to under-privaledged countries around the world.

Hell, I read this information years ago before the articles were plastered all over the internet. But you say that you can't find one that backs up my story...funny because I found one in about 20 seconds.... http://www.heritage.org/research/regulation/bg276.cfm

I read that article, and it still does not back up your claim that we went on the hook f the other 70 cents on the dollar...so i ask again....You claimed we had to make up the difference...show me where?

Studiusbagus...who do you think made up the difference? This is not rocket science. It was a government backed guaranteed loan!!!!! Do you honestly think the creditors would have allowed being paid off only 30 cents on the dollar?

Look, our government does this stuff all the time. Our Federal Reserve (privately owned cartel) has just opened up lines of credit to serveral nations...Singapore, Argentina, Mexico, Brazil, South Korea, and New Zealand (these articles can be found on MSN). I will just take one of these as an example.

After Mexico defaulted on their loans that started in 1982, we allowed them to do a currency swap. Then after the currency swap did not solve the problem, we then allowed them to do a debt swap. A debt swap is similar to a currency swap in that the U.S. exchanges something of real value in return for something that is worthless. But, instead of currencies, they exchanged government bonds. Currencies are valued by their immediate worth, where bonds are valued by their future worth!

Mexico, using U.S. dollars, purchased $492 million worth of American Treasury Bonds that pay no interest but which will pay $3.67 billion when they mature in 20 years. Then Mexico issued its own bonds with the U.S. securities tied to them as collateral. This meant that the future value of Mexico's bonds, previously considered worthless, were now guaranteed by the United States government. The banks eagerly swapped their old loans for these new Mexican bonds at a ratio of about 1.4 to 1. In other words, they accepted $100 million in bonds in return for canceling $140 million in old debt. That reduced their interest income, but the banks were happy to do it, because they had swapped worthless loans for fully-guaranteed bonds.

Now the real magic was where Mexico got the American dollars with which to buy the bonds. They came through the IMF in the form of "foreign-currency exchange reserves." In other words, they were subsidies from the industrialized nations, primarily the United States. So, the U.S. Treasury put up the lion's share of the money to buy its own bonds!!! It went a half-billion dollars deeper in debt and agreed to pay $3.7 billion more in futrure payments so the Mexican government could continue paying interest to the banks. That is called bailout, and it does fall on the American taxpayer!!

We are not talking about mexico, we are talking about the chrysler deal...the heritage paper said the banks agreed to the 30 cents, but nowhere does it say they defaulted and we had to pay the other 70 cents....can you show this from YOUR statement that WE went on the hook for the CHRYSLER loan?

What part of government backed guaranteed loan don't you get?? It is common sense! Let alone the inflationary consequences and decrease in purchasing power that ultimately only hurts the poor and middle-class.

I don't have time to sift through the internet looking for every detail to satisfy you. You're part of the illusion that the money was paid back in full. I respectfully disagree!! You believe what government and the elite media shoves in your head. That's fine! You completely disregard the facts in front of you simply because it is not spelled out in a nicely packaged paragraph. You fail to understand the consequences even if they did pay back all the money!!

As of the beginning of 2008, the dollar had lost 30% of it's purchasing power since 2000 (not including the compounding interest tacked on annually)!! Bush added approximately $4 Tillion onto the deficit up to this point. Now, we have added another $3 Trillion with a total of $8 Trillion allocated in less than a year!! Even if this money is paid back (which it won't), our money will be worth 75-80% less than it did to start with, but people like you can't see this, because your blinded by facts and truth. It is worthless!!! Inflation is a hidden tax that steals wealth from the middle-class. If your satisfied with accepting worthless FRN's, that is fine with me. I'll be raising hell all the way!

Right on Puck,they voted for Obama didn't they ? LOL.

Its not just America, the big three goes down it will drag Ontario with them.

Were not as stupid as you think EH!!

I own a Ford and have always bought American cars.  I'm with you on that.  I'm just afraid that the people who make these cars are over paid and quite frankly they are in no position to make demands.  I am all for employees making more when the company is doing well, better them than the CEOs, but now that the company is about to go under...you have to wonder if they want to keep their jobs by reducing their pay or lose their jobs because of their greed.

I personally do not want to see them go under and I support the government loaning them the money.  But I do believe there needs to be conditions that come with that loan....first and foremost these union workers need to cut their pay by at least 1/2...if they do not agree then they will find themselves on the unemployment line.

I was a Ford person from the time I bought my first vehicle - a 1929 Ford when I graduated from high school in 1954 - but after many, many years of buying Fords (Ford Rangers) I needed a bigger truck to haul hay, cement, lumber, etc.  Plus, the Rangers always seemed to have problems that entailed excessive labor costs and time.

Bought a 2000 Toyota Tundra in 2003 with 38,000 miles on it.  Got a great deal - and it gets 20-22 mpg, too.  Have only had to buy tires and a battery so far and have the oil changes done on time.  Would I go back to Ford?  No.  This truck will outlast me - at 72 years of age, I have a lot more miles on me!

GM is over $60 BILLION in debt now with $21 BILLION coming due in retiree health benefits.  Will a measly $10, $15 or $20 billion really help the company?  Do the math - they will make a few teeny changes and then be back for more money.

We still have not seen any plans for what they will do with the money.  Why not?  Answer:  they have no plans.  It will be business as usual until this "loan" runs out and then they will be asking for another "loan".

I love chevy's always have, and I support the American worker. But when the auto industry built plants in other countries instead of investing more in America they lost my admiration. You want to question someones patriotism, question theirs.

So we should buy "chevy's" out of patriotism?

Test your logic.  Would you put money into a bank that offered a lower interest rate based strictly based on emotion?  Should your son not tackle a player in a football game to keep the score "fair?" 

People make decisions in their best interest.  The gentleman bought a truck that served his needs.  Perhaps automakers should pay more attention to that.

Shove off with your "buy American" BS.  My so called Foreign car was built in Tennessee.  Go ahead and pull out that factory AC/Declo water compressor(if they even make those anymore) and see that it was made in a factory in Mexico. Or any part for that matter, everyone inside the game knows that they are just another box label slapped on the lowest bidder supplies from who-knows-where.  GM is most likely to fail out of these three, and maybe The other car companies, not just the "American" ones will pick up the slack.  Chrysler's parent company, Cerberus, has over 25 BILLION in assets, if they give two SH%$S about Chrysler they will pony up. I think Ford has the best chance of making it through.

Or maybe go to big oil and ask those crooks to bail them out, they've been making record profits for the 2 years.  W/O cars they won't make nearly as much money.

Just look at what happened to the money handed out to Wall street.  Where did it go?  To the same irresponsible CEOs that ruined those companies in the first place, and the market has suffered even more.  Why in gods name should we give money to a bunch of greedy CEOs who are driving their companies into the ground? All they are going to do is piss it all away.  Don't kid yourself, there will be NO oversight if they get the money.  A "Car Czar?  Are you kidding me?  Oh great idea, because our wonderful government has done so well the past 2 decades we should really trust them to "stimulate the economy" right?  I'm not blaming this just on bush, it's Washington in general.   Like Utahreb said, these guys are in debt by tens of billions of dollars and the proposed bail out is only what, 7-9 billion?  All these guys are looking to do is pad their accounts before they shut down their plants...looking for a handout.  

You guys are acting like if one goes down they will all go down.  That's just not true, look the way Is our economy is in shambles at this point and when Congress gives themselves a $4700 raise at the beginning of the year how the hell do you expect me to support ANYTHING that goes through Washington?

mojo,

cerebus did pony up when they bought them. chrysler was told to sink or swim. guess what? 

a holding company like cerebus doesn't use funds from successful businesses to subsidize money losing ventures. the shareholders would have a field day in court.  and fyi-$25 billion in assets is not the same as cash. most of that is invested in other companies.

"Shove off with your "buy American" BS. My so called Foreign car was built in Tennessee"

No Einstein....your foreign car was ASSEMBLED in Tennessee....they build the components overseas and ship them here.

When you buy a chinese made Bicycle in Walmart and have them assemble it, does hat make it American Built?? Wise up!!!

nissan USA produces over 80% of its components in this country. that was stipulated in the agreement when they set up their US production. that number will continue to rise as they locate suppliers who can meet their quality specs. - 1 defect per 250,000 units.  not sure which transplant you're referring to but a family member is in operations at nissan USA, where i got that number.

Obviously there are many factors that have led to the imminent demise of the Big Three , but three biggies are CEO/management fiscal and professional incompetence, sub-sub-par products, and an underperforming/over compensated workforce. Nothing can save this sinking ship--it's money down the drain, and it will be endless at that.
BUT, if there is to be a taxpayer bailout, at least there should be:
1. CEOs and top management get paid the minimun wage until the company begins to gain market share and shows a profit. If that is unacceptable to them--they are out the door with NO benefits (they've got to pay for their mistakes/failures).
2. The politicans who are pushing the bailout must (a) State publicly that henceforth US citizens are required to purchase at least one car from the Big Three, and (b) the politican himself will have his taxpayer wages automoatically deducted each month to pay for a Big Three auto he is immediately purchasing.
3. Only Big Three autos can be driven by their UAW workers onto plant lots. If you don't own one, stay home Jack.
Let the Bailout begin!!!!

I lived in the Pittsburgh area until 1985. I was never union but I watched as most of my extended family lost their jobs in the Steel industry. 1 of my uncles committed suicide over losing his great paying job. He never graduated high school and was driving a brand new Cadillac and a brand new truck when he died. Since then, all of my family has re-educated themselves and moved on to other fields. This will happen with the UAW too.

The world will not end if the big 3 goes down.

Good post. Your family was motivated to learn something new instead of complain and look for handouts.