UAW sacrifices look to some like surrender

I hate to see a guy get his wages cut, especially a blue collar but I see unions as bad for business. I was a part of the UAW as well and growing up in a rural area I was shocked to find out how the union protected the lazy worker, in fact they almost encouraged him to be lazy. To get fired you almost had to assault management with a 2 x 4. With pressure from other workers it didn't take me long to get a bad attitude and soon finding myself doing the bare minimum during my shift. I'm not saying all union workers are lazy but a lot of them think they are entitled to their jobs. Even the kid making $7.00 running the fryer at McDonalds has to produce or he's going to get fired, some how the auto industry convinced the rest of us that they are more important.

Again we have a payout of our future tax dollars to industry with "form over substance" requirments. There is NO true teeth in what Bush is "asking" the unions to do and no real incentive for the auto companies to even try real hard to meet the goals.

Once the money is spent - and the car companies are in a few months "again" at the precipice of bankruptcy - how does the gov't think they will get these "loans" repaid.

I think the thing that "frosts" me the most though is the loan to Chrysler.. Chrysler was purchased from Damelier Benz (Mercedes) by a group of super rich investors with the sole goal of flipping it back to the public to make a huge profit.  How does our government justify bailing out these very wealthy (or formerly wealthy) individuals from a bad investment choice - they would NEVER bail out my small business in the same circumstances and take all the small business owners together, small retail store and restaurant owners who are being hurt by this economy - we are as much as risk as all the auto industry and probably are equal in numbers! Once they opened "pandora's" box - how then did they decide big business is more important then the small entrepenuer that made America great? Who do they think is going to ever be able to repay these HUGE deficits they are creating - and what industry? Until the car industry really goes through a true bankruptcy and a new lean, productive, pro active car industry emerges nothing will truly change. Better to have taken that money and backed a new startup then throw it down the toilet of the big 3!

Again this horrible administration is "bucking" the senate who had the guts to stop another bailout - and just using money meant for helping "US" the homeowner in trouble with their mortgage to bail out big business, like they did with big banks! Not one dime of the original lie of a bailout went to help even ONE homeowner.

No matter what your politics -  this is one fact that is apparant... despite rhetoric to the contrary... Bush and his brand of the Republican party are only for BIG business and deficit spending ... like the old joke goes - their brand of politics truly believes in: " are you going to believe me or them lying eyes"?

You are saying unions are bad for nusiness..since when.?  The unions brought up the pay for most everyone when companies were making huge profits.....Have you ever been to an auto plant?  I have....the only sit down time I got was when I got a break or when to lunch.  Am not sure where some folks are getting their information but much is not correct.

So far I have seen where no CEO or company lost money because of employee wages. They lose when they have something no one buys....iin the  case of the auto companies right now...credit is the problem ..... if people are affraid of losing their jobs they don't buy. Consider this, even the imported auto companies are losing money here now. Matter of fact...many CEO's are still getting huge checks even when their companies are sinking...the only reason they will take a cut in their funds is if they are forced too...and so far I have not seen that happen...

As too how other unions are,,electrical and the others, I have no idea how they operate...and so far I have not seen anyone jumping on them and telling them they have to take pay cuts.  I guess if you think the companies should get all the cash from your work that is fine....if you think they will pay you a great salary just because it would be right ... guess again.

Something else to consider...our representatives make a pretty good wage...and do little work for it other than argue amonst themselves...do we have a say in what they make ? No, and I for one don't think they will ever give us that power. Do you?

 I have....the only sit down time I got was when I got a break or when to lunch.  Am not sure where some folks are getting their information but much is not correct.

The only place the anti-union types are getting their "information" is from Limbaugh or they're just repeating the same tired urban myths that have been around since the 70's.

Don't watch Limbaugh .. sorry ... but what I am saying is that Unions had their time and place... to equate paying a line worker $28 an hour (about $50K per year) with another hidden $40 in benefits and retirement to paying a teacher about $30K a year is a perfect example of us "anti union" types having pure disdain for what has happened to Unions ...

And by the way .. don't know about you - but I actually own a business - and have been an owner of various business working my tail off for almost 40 years - both unionized and non-unionized - and in my world - Labor costs are a HUGE expense as they are in the auto industry - Wages AND future benefits are burying them...

As to sit down time? .. Guess what ... you are paid to work .. as a kid I was paid to work.. when I mowed lawns I took sit down time, but had to finish the lawn .. when I shoveled sidewalks I had sit down time but had to finish shoveling.. when I delivered papers I had sit down time but had to finish my route OR did not get paid... have all the sitdown time you want .. but WORK your 8 hour day ... that is what we the business owner are paying you to do ....

As to politics I totally agree...  and no... I am not rich .. just an entrepenuer and 60 year old business owner still working hard and will have to work hard the rest of my life it appears to pay for "bailouts" and entitlement politicos!  As to CEO's and the young investments banker snots, and athletes and movies starts.. well that is truly where much of the problems started .. somehow we forgot what is real .. and what is not! ...

By the way .. I was a memeber of the teamsters in my early years ... so you do not have an exclusinve on understanding unions!

Sounds like the convention center here in las vegas, you don't dare do anything in that building unless union members do it.  Bunch of bull@!$%#

"You are saying unions are bad for nusiness..since when.?" - Since right now.  Since the last three decades.  Since the information age has made union protectionism obsolete.  Three of the most poorly run industries over time in the U.S. are the U.S. Auto Industry, the Airline Industry, and our U.S. Public Schools (currently ranked 30th in the world, right behind Azerbajian, fyi).  What do each of these industries have in common?  Think about it...

Unions are good for nothing in this very modern and informed world, other than to kill all competition and ensure no one worker does better than any of the others.  Call it the "lowest common denominator theory of unions."  Unions cater to the bottom of the barrel of any industry they're in.  Any worker/teacher, etc. desiring to innovate or in any way improve his/her job or the productivity of the process is bullied into compliance with union lazyness or forced to go elsewhere for work.  In this age where "progress" toward anything is considered a laudable goal, unions currently exist to thwart all improvement in the industries in which they are involved.  Unions are an anomoly in an otherwise progressing nation.  Unions wish to stay in the past.  In their own minds, unions are an end, and not the means to an end. 

As far as the source of my information - look around you!  Our airlines are practically government-run entities, and rarely, if ever, make money - our heavily unionized automakers would have failed already outside of government intervention, and our public school systems are a worldwide joke.  Wake up!  We can't just sit on our butts, decry all productivity and effort as evil, and still expect to compete in a world that it very quickly passing us by.  By what measure do unions make us, as a nation, better off?  I understand how they make the union workers "better off" - less work for more pay is seen by some as being "better off."  However, for those of us that want this nation to remain atop the lists in education, in GDP, in exporting - how do unions help? 

There is a balance to be struck, for sure.  Proper regulation (and an injection of common sense all around) would have prevented the financial institution collapse we're currently wading through.  However, the answer is not to sit back, cry foul at any demand to work hard, and stomp our feet while waiting for the government to step in and make it all better...the time for unions (read great depression) has past.

Okay, even I, being a union member, have to agree that the union work rules can be a bit ridiculous, if not out and out A__inine.  But why is all the blame being put on the workers.  That is just as stupid.  Why are we not looking at the CEO, CFO, President, 500 vice presidents, etc, of these companies.  Why are we not looking at the fact that the big wigs of all companies, not just the auto dealers, are making millions of dollars a year.  I am sorry, do you really need 10 million dollars a year to live on.  Come on, who are they fooling.  Do you know how many people you can keep working every year if you just cut out the ridiculous wages for the big wigs.  And that is just the beginning, what about all the trips they take for the sake of business, when we know they are really on vacation.  I may have been born at night, but not last night.  There is a company out there right now that I used to be a contractor for that that decided to fire 50 people, then gave themselves 10 million dollar bonuses.  Give me 10 million and with the right investments, I could probably live the rest of my life on it.  Open your eyes america, where does the problem really lay.  Lets not get me started on the whole problem of the politicians giving these companies breaks for taking american jobs overseas.  If these companies brought all those jobs back to the U.S., that would help our economy immensly.  Oh, what about the fact that the illegals take billions of our dollars to Mexico.  Again I say, open your eyes America.

Now you John the union memeber "get it" ... no one with half a brain is just blaming the workers.. what we are saying is that ALL have to tighten the belt - ALL have to have productivity and ALL have to come back to reality with wages and costs.. both the line guy and the CEO ...  but you can not justify paying outrageous hourly labor cost and benefits by pointing at the ridiculous CEO (etc) compensation .. one wrong does not justify another...  and the problems are so far past the hourly wage alone that this bailout or loan or gift is like putting a bandaid over a bazooka hole!

Just as I oringally said.. Form over substance!  It does not begin to address all the problems.. ONLY one (the union wages) .. so we all get lost in this subject and forget the illegal workers, the CEO's, the hypocrisy of their dealer networks etc etc etc ... just another "proof" of why we just pissed away another 14 billiion dollars of money "earmarked" to help the homeowner and little guy .. by patching up big business...

Bush did this so that on top of a failed legacy .. he could not be said to have let the auto industry also fail under his watch .. period.. end of story.. and like good sheep everywhere.. we just follow along.... and get lost in rhetoric!

I find no problem in correcting some of the riduclous rules unions have but to think people make $16 dollars to $26 dollars an hour are whats wrong with manufacturing in this country is absurd, whats killing American business is executive and CEO pay, these guys mark a million to hundreds of millions more than the hourly wage the worker gets, then factor in bonus's, Wall Street workers getting $200,000 to a million dollars a year not counting bonus's, and that's the average types, their bosses getting hundreds of millions to half a billion dollars annually, whats wrong with America???? try the distribution of wealth, 75% of the wealth created since 1980 has gone to 2% of the American population and you bloggers are crying about a union man making $40 to $60 thousand a year and say his wages should be cut more, this country is brainwashed the average person attacking his own for the benefit of the few, and I haven't even mentioned the minimum wage $7.35 an hour, you had more buying power in the seventies when it was three dollars a hour, the middle class has been loosing ground since 1980, when you all wake up and find your competitive with Mexico,China and India you will realize most of you will be in poverty...but hey go ahead give the CEO another hundred million. I was hoping to raise our standard of living and our health care to equal Denmark or Sweden where the highest standard of living and the best health care is, not lower it to the to the up a coming economy's whose population is mostly poverty stricken.

Propaganda from union busters. Plain and simple and total Bull.

It's a start.

The unions are not the only one who is going to have to make concessions. Upper management will have to also. Any employee has the right to make what he thinks he can get. But with the unions you have a lot of dead weight that is protected because of the union. This brings down production which affects profits. Also when the benefits cost are so high that if cancel any chance of a company making a profit. Than it also backfires. Bottom line is the company has to stay in the black and this takes the management team and the people working on the line to work together for this to happen. You can not work are arms lenght and get this done.

As far as the moron Franks wanting less requirements for the union or management you have to look at how far he has his hand in the till. He does not care about anyone but his own profit. This goes for about all of the professional politions in office now.

Why they gave the auto industry 3 month to come up with a plan to be profitable is beyond me. This should have been done months ago. But i'm sure they thought they would just get a big hand out with no strings attached.

palco

It's not the $14 to $26 per hour pay rate that's causing the problems. It's the other costs imposed by the unions that add up to $73 per hour for labor. Also, the union rules that require hiring additional people to do simple jobs that the line workers could easily do but can't "touch" because it's forbidden by union "rules". The unions have largely pushed the automakers to the verge of bankruptcy.

The average manufacturing job in the Country costs the employer about $25 per hour (including benefits). The average non-union auto worker costs $44 per hour. The average UAW worker costs $73 per hour. Does anyone see the problem here?

Seems everyone is on a union bash. Back in the late 70's or erly 80's I think, the Consumers magazine did a article on the auto industry wages as it effected the price of a car. The manufactures were crying that labour was to much, being the cause of their problems. At the time, the Ford Taurus was the best selling brand and averaged a selling price of $20,000.  It was found out, through detailed evidence from the auto industry that the actual hands on labour cost was a whopping $800 !!!! That ended that story of the big 3 crying about wages. Nobody has actually come up with a new labour cost in a vehicle that I have read. I think the big cash problem is the obscene wages and bonuses the management always seems to get. The root of this whole mess is the GREEDY AMERICAN BUSINESSMAN ! He has taken all his manufacturing (union and none union alike) and taken them out of North America to find cheaper wages to increase his bottom line, and to hell with the American worker. He never thought ahead to the day the displaced worker would have no money and would have to use credit to survive and to buy his product. Well, that day has come and there is no more money or credit resulting in the mess North America is in. It didn't help where the Politicians in the USA and Canada let these countries become the dumping grounds for all the cheap labour crap that the whole world was sending to North America, and refusing to buy anything from us. REMEMBER, the chinese Yen is artificially tagged at a low price to the USA dollar. I personnaly am fed up with union bashing( yeah I know we protect some that we shouldn't, but here's the kicker, how low would the non-union wage be if there wasn't a bench mark to compare to. Alot lower I'm sure!) , but it makes people feel better, I guess, when they can blame someone else for their problems. Think of that when you get into your chinese made shirt and jeans, turn on your Chinese TV, then make coffee in a Tiawanese coffepot> Look out the window at your Japenese Car that you don't have to drive to work in any more since you don't have a job to go to anyways! Think about what has happened the last 20 years to North America and why. Blaming the unions is blaming the wrong group. What products and where they were built is the root of the problem. Think of that the next time your see a business suit on TV. Sorry to have rambled, but had to say it.

What most people fail to understand is that the UAW isn't just the people that work at the big three. It extends to a lot of their parts suppliers. Maybe the Union is kick ass in Detroit but where I worked making piston rings for GM it was a freaking joke. People screwed off all day because it didn't matter if you got out ten parts or 1000 because the union was there to protect your lazy a$$.

Yes, it's bad for business.

How much sit down time does a plumber or a carpenter or an electrician get ?

Repubs have been trying to break the union for years, so this should come as no surprise.

It sounds to me like they(being the Union) want thier cake and eat it too. If they don't approve of the way the loan agreement is written, then do not take the money. I am making it on a hell of alot less than $28.00 an hour or $24.00 either one.

Roy.  That is exactly hitting the nail on the head. THEY,  and the CEOs, VPs, PRES. And all of the other Execs. They have priced themselves out of the game. Now they are going to ALL have to cut their wages back. I looked in the paper yesterday, and they had a Caddilac Escalade, which is nothing but an overpriced Chevy, $65,000.00. Where do they get the Idea that their vehicle is worth that kind of money?  That is what overpricing THEMSELVES has done.  And that is exactly what has happened to our economy.  I say they should get rid of ALL Unions. They have outlived their usefulness. But, since that is not going to happen, They should ALL take cuts in pay or forget about getting money.

You astound me with your ignorance! Convention center issues are not UAW, they are IBEW. UAW electricians are not allowed to work there. The days of the "Protected screw off" have been long gone. The corporations and the UAW have together made rules much tougher so that is a past practice. Jobs have been combined, so that what was once done by 2-3 people are being done by 1. How do I know this? Because I am in the machine tool industry and I work as an electrician. New lines that build major sheet metal parts (doors, floor pans, body sides, hoods, trunk lids) are now robotic lines with minimum human interface. Usually there is a person (1) feeding some small parts into 2-3 stations, and robots picking up major parts from specially designed racks and placing them in the lines. Welding is also done by robots, whether it be spot welds or mig welding.  A part comes out the other end of the line, is put on a monorail and moved elsewhere, or parts are loaded into racks by robots for transport to other areas where they are taken by yet another robot and put on the vehicle that is being assambled. This is a major reason why there are fewer auto workers. With robotics you need less people to do the work.

And by the way, the UAW represents more people in the medical profession and government workers than auto workers!

KArl

Has noting to do with union bashing. Just that your union has priced you out a job and is now asking the rest of America to keep your life stile at our expence. And yes we have some greedy sob around. Maybe ask your union to not pay out congress so your dues don't have to be so hi.

The language of the loan agreement sets specific "restructuring targets" that General Motors and Chrysler must use their "best efforts" to meet. Compensation must be made "equal" to the nonunion workers, and work rules must be "competitive" with those at nonunion plants. The companies also must reduce compensation to workers who have been laid off — the jobs bank  and at least half of the company's payments into retiree health care must be made in stock, not cash. If the companies fall short of those targets, they are required to explain why.

Bob, Lincoln County,

You make a good point in saying the there is no teeth in what Bush is asking the unions to do. The requirements say "restructuring targets" which is the use of slick legalese meaning try to reach these goals as best you can but if you don't then you must explain why.

How is that making the requirements mandatory from the start? Well it doesn't and that's the problem. Another end run to sneak the ball in for the score with $17 billion the welfare prize for another few months without the union actually having to comply right away.

This is so true. I grew up in a GM family. I remember hearing stories about how union bosses would walk the floor and make sure the workers weren't doing 'too much'. They didn't want them to go over production quotas because that would increase productivity quotas in the next round of contract talks. Once workers reached their quota for the day, they had to sit and do nothing....even if it was only lunchtime. Also, the union established how many workers had to be on each job along the line. If it really only took 4 people to complete a task, the union insisted that 6 people had to work on it. Employees may not be lazy, but they have no choice but to do what the union demands of them.  Eventually, many workers either begin to feel entitled or lose their pride and dignity. The UAW causes huge productivity losses and a ridiculous waste of money.

People need to start reading and responding with reason as oppossed to passion. Yes, some union members act inappropriately, some union locals act inappropriately, some unions act inappropriately, but guess what, it really comes down to the individual and their work ethic. I've seen worse crap in dealing with non-organized labor. Often what is viewed as bull crap promoted by unions is replaced by nepotism and a good ole boys attitude. I managed a project last summer with organized labor and non-organized labor forces not only working side-by-side but in many cases helping one another in an area that has been traditionally very tough pro-union. The legal establishment, along with the help of union membership reigned in the thugs and sent them to jail. At the same time INS was rounding up not only illegal workers but more importantly the unscrupulous business owners that knowingly employed them. Same goes for employers thumbing their noses at labor laws. People, my point is, not everything is black or white, hot or cold. Grow up, think with reason not with passion. 

While, I too, am sickened by many of union ways of protecting lazy incompetence in the work place, I am worried by the media's lack of accurate reporting about the facts of these bailouts and failings.

Isn't it a fact that the American auto workers pay and benefit package (approved by management) are actually in line with the "other" auto makers except that the American companies have a higher debt due to past employee retirement and benefit packages, that have nothing to do with current wages and benefit packages?

Isn't it a fact that the major cost is the ridiculous spike in health care cost that was created by a 35% increase in administration cost? 

Union Haters,

It is amazing to me how the 40 year old Republican disinformation campaign has worked wherein average people wish to see blue collar wages and benefits driven down. The Republican Party has been anti-labor anti-union for over 100 yrs and worship at the altar of laissez faire trickle down capitalism. The same anti union anti regulation arguments have been made since the days of Eugene Debs and Walter Reuther. The rise and expansion of middle class America corresponds directly to support of labor and the decline of the middle class directly corresponds to the 30 yr fight of the Reagan revolution to grind the blue collar middle class to serfdom.

The economics are simple from 1932 and the New Deal government intervention on behalf of labor and the right to have a union working on your behalf have led to an enormous middle class expansion driven by the blue collar workers elevation from working poor to middle class. This ended with Reagans union breaking and vilification of the poor and his announment that we were now a Service Economy which did not recquire a heavily industrialized base. When Reagan was elected a fully employed minimum wage worker with a family of three was at 98% of the poverty threshold that same family today is at 78% of the poverty threshold they are 20% worse off. This does not factor increased medical and lowered social service programs. This ratio holds true for every wage earner who makes less than $60,000.00 ,this is what trickle down does. Unemployment has increased in every Republican presidential cycle since Harding often doubling. It has decreased in every Democratic cycle since Roosevelt.

JKHayes

Gene,

I will never get tired of telling you that you are the one that is wrong.  Unions and the minumum wage have pushed jobs overseas.  You go to the car dealer that gives you the best deal?  Compainies go to the labor market that give them the best deal. We are very high priced in America, and I blame that directly on he greedy unions and the minumum wage.

 The new economic reality will not undo unions but make them face the facts. The near collapse of the economy is tough medicine for both industry and labor.

 Unions will be forced to give back concessions they bargained for in the "old days". Management will forgo the perks they have taking for granted.

 Together we stand a chance to come out of this, or fail alone.

I'm  not a union expert, but if anyone thinks we can have a healthy middle class and fair pay for skilled labor by relying on the judgement of corporate America and without organized labor is simply dreaming. And let's remember that the UAW has made concessions to  lower starting pay to $14/hr.

This whole bailout seems to be about union busting. Here we've given the banksters about $250 billion so far without even requiring them to loan the money -- which was supposed to be the whole damn idea! I'm not saying we should just throw money at the auto industry without restructuring, but they could have taken $20 or so billion from the bank give-away and dropped it from helicopters over the auto plants and it would have done more good.

The CEO's are not without blame in this mess but the UAW had better understand that they have made their bed.  Years of laziness and greed made the UAW a bad word.  I used to be a union supporter but the new function of the union is to protect lazy people and it makes me sick.  We did not do this to them, they did it to themselves.

I think what people fail to understand is that Honda pays a high salary too but without the expense of union dues, and a lot of stupid union rules.  Honda has given their workers everything that the UAW tried to use as a means to encourage Honda's worker to become unionized.  The UAW has tried repeatedly to get into Honda's plants only to have Honda say to their workers "You want that we'll give it to you without the UAW"  This is a common fact with people in the areas the Japanese plants are located.  They were starting out kids straight out of high school 30 yrs ago at $16/hr.  It's the UAW that is the problem.  If the Big 3 workers didn't have the UAW they'd still have gotten good salaries and we have labor laws to enforce safety, etc. 

Has anyone thought about addressing the real problems in the auto industry? For one, the United States makes crappy cars. I would love to buy Amercican but the quality of the product is poor. Even with that, I still bought American.  The after purchase service was terrible. I had to use the Lemon Law on the last American cars because the dealer network for Ford and GM would not fix them. If they would have at least stood behind their poor product I may have tried to work with them. Look at the American cars. They are junk.

The second thing is why not require foreign car makers to be competitive with U.S. companies with their wages. In short, raise their level of pay, benifits and work rules to the level of the U.S. carmakers.

Again, it will all be for not if the U.S> automakers don't fire their entire management and design teams and start fresh.  It is this machine that beat Germany and Japan before and they can do it again.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

Labor costs of $73 per hour for union workers, and they wonder why so many manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas? Does anyone know how to connect the dots?

The root of this whole problem is that people feel they are entitled to more than they are.  I make 80k/yr and work my ass off. There are people that don't work half as hard that make a boat load more than me; at the same time, there are people that work harder than I do who can barely make ends meat.  You can say what you want about union workers, but the fact is that both the UAW demands for higher wages/benefits & the auto industry's willingness to meet these demands is what brought them to this place.  I hate to see anyone have to take a pay cut, but I would rather have a job with a lower wage and less benefits than have no job at all.  Both parties need to accept the fact that times have changed and business needs to be conducted differently for both to survive.  Ultimately, life is unfair.

uaw, go on strike! dont take this lying down. in the long run, a few years down, u'll be ok. tell the gov. and ur company to shove it.

I find it all very interesting, especially the statement about average wage of 28. going to 24. for union members..most people I know that work at average job clear 10.-12. an hour..The airlines were mentioned, not all of it is union, they have the rules in place too, pilots and glorified water slingers are covered whole heartedly in some of the bigflyers the mechanics but in the out stations and commuter carrier mechanics are dirt, something wrong there when they are the ones who keep the planes going, and ya have 4 man job and see 1 mechanic working cause they cut cost by not hiring them and just working the others 14-16 hours and in some cases road trips and only pay for work time not travel time which by the way is driving. I think if a business has a union they should consider how over pay effects the bottom line when production is down, but i also agree the ceo's are way over paid and should be forced down..I'd love to sit on phone and go do lunch for 3 hrs on union pay and watch someone else do my work at lower pay then take credit, what an american dream that would be !! real hard to feel sorry for 24. when people work for alot less and now most have no job, and really wonder why the true average worker is angry.

To Two Cents Worth:  Well, I work in healthcare facility design, so unions have not been bad for my business - more people having good health insurance is good for me.  It all depends on your perspective.

cut the wages and benefits of these union fatcats including their union bosses. also cut the union employees that work for the government also these people are way over paid and get health benes we would all love. fire them all and lets open up their jobs to all of us out there who are not part of the system

Well that tears it I am out of this "all for the rich country" It was o.k. when there were good unions like the tamsters and the Auto workers. Now the Auto workers union is gone and all of us are just like "scabs" fighting for a days work. Just like the illegals. Well all you "white collar" snobs who think everything should be given to you so you can play with money all day and have everything. I saw what happens in a union state and a non union state. My uncle worked at U.S. Steel for fourty years and when he retired he enjoyed his life.he and his wife traveled and had good cars,kept his house. He and his wife lived twenty years on his retirement. I kew a man who retired in South Carolina after fourty years in a mill. He went to a retirement party at noon on his last day and the pencil pushing "GEEk" accountant tried to take  one hundred dollars a month from his retirement which was ony thirty percent of my uncle's. He had to move in with his son and his wife, patch up his old car and the hight point of his week was his once a week trip to the local family owned restraunt for his only day out. Unions are the backbone of this country and if any THIEF in Washington D.C. makes the union give back money they will never again get my vote. When the Wall St. Thieves were bailout,they did not have to cut there pay or lower there benifits,No! they are to good for that. We must bail-out the paper pushers because they contribute to all the Thieving politicians. Well I  am out of here. The problems is that all the paper pushers don't want anyone who actually works to get anything. Well the politicians have been tring since the seventies to break the unions and they have done it. The "Big three" auto makers have been tring for foutry years to break the Auto workes union and this will do it. Welcome to Mexico.

No, they don't get fined, but, they do sit and wait until the repairman comes and fixes his equipment. Unless, of course, the operator has a back-up tool.  Then, if he sits and does nothing, he's at  fault because he's not doing his job. Of course, it's management's responsibility to have everything documented, it's happened at least twice before with this same person, there is a written action plan showing what management has done in the past to correct the problem of the equipment breaking down, prove that both shifts aren't having the same problem, the operator has been fully trained on the job, with documentation. And, that documentation is kept by his team leader, who is union, and they can't "rat" on each other.  Other than that, it's a simple job!!!

You have to remember that the actions of our federal government are entireley to blame for this situation.

It was the trade agreements, lack of continuity in energy policy, and lobbying of congress by financial industry special interests removing safegaurds and regulations that led us here.

For the amount of taxes we all pay, there should be a reasonable expectation that energy prices not quadruple overnight, and the amount of cash that we pour into intelligence and defense would not allow a 9-11.

Our foriegn policy that allows American corporations to exploit resources and humanity do not also serve us well.

The auto makers were doing it all right IMO, they just now are realizing that the failure of American leadership is now having it's effect.

Look at Sen. Shelby's failed bankrupt state of Alabama. Tell me that what he is selling works?

Bob,,,don't own a busines myself...did work with-in the UAW. THey had contracts..do not ever hear of the CEO's at any of the auto companies getting less in their checks because of what the hourly guy got.  Granted, some changes are needed...but blaming the unions for what the public was buying is not right. Have not heard of any of the CEO's getting less in their benefits packages because of the unions either.   What other losses do you think the unions should take.....how much more then should the CEO"s make off of the workers labor?

If spending money to save jobs at this time is wrong then what will we need the banks that got 350 million for?  Except maybe to keep the CEO's in money.

If cutting wages is the way to go...do not stop with the auto companies, how about electricans, plumbers, or any other trade group...they have unions too...

Just so the union lovers don't try to say " look what we got for you". Henry Ford paid his employees more then the going rate because he wanted to retain the good ones. Had unions not got greedy and forced what "they got you" it would have been given by the companies that wanted to retain the good workers. It might have taken longer to get to you, but it would have.

This is jsut troll bait for corporations here. If you look at how they arrive at that 73-80 bucks an hour per per car you can see that is recovered in the cost of the car so the big three is not losing a cent on union wages. All this figure is used for is union busting. The heritage foundation has it scaled 26 bucks for pay 20 bucks for HI and 26 bucks for other costs which include pensions and HC for retirees. These costs are included in the overall wholesale price of a car so the consumer pays for it not GM or Chrysler or Ford. What would happen if they lowered these rates by give backs? Retirees would suffer after working all their lives for these companies. Would it affect the cost to us for a car? Since transportation costs have went down have prices went down? Wake up.

     This is just a save face posturing attempt by Bushie on his way out the door.

      26.00 X 2080= 55,000 per year

       A Ceo make 300 times what a worker makes now days average.

        300 X 55000= 16,224,000.

         Who needs a pay cut?

 worked in an aerospace facility when I got out of the service. I had never worked in a union shop before and had no idea what a time study was. While on my sixty day probation period I was producing at a time study equivalent of 210%. The union workers started hiding tools from me and telling me to slow down and take breaks.

My thoughts were with my brothers in arms who might need a helicopter to get him out of harms way or medi vac him out, or provide air support.

I worked through the union to be nominated and sent to our state capital for two secession and to D.C. for one secession as a lobbyist.

I have seen both sides of the issues.

We lost jobs overseas due to the labor unions greed and refusing to work with management and sacrifice to help retool factories. And the management side was greedy in trying to optimize the profit line to attract shareholders.

It is time to ask what can we do together to benefit the whole body.

give the union workers the equilavant to what the nonunion workers in other states receive.

There once was a time and place for unions.  No more.  With today's government protections, collective bargaining is not needed and is bad for business.  The UAW is responsible for the demise of US automakers, and must be demolished before they will ever be competitive again.  The UAW is responsible for building a barrier towards US manufacturing and promotes the sending of jobs offshore.  It is time for the UAW to go belly up.  Down with the UAW!!!

"Labor costs of $73 per hour for union workers, and they wonder why so many manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas? "

Roy, this is exactly the misinformation I was referring to unless the report I heard the other night was wrong.

It was reported, I believe, that "current" American auto workers earn $48. p/h including benefits which they said was completely in line with foreign competition, however when you add in the benefits of all the past employees w/ pensions and their continued health care then they are adding on another $20 p/h  and this is the big deceiving descrepences in the wage war.

So tell me if this is right or wrong. Auto industries have said they will close their doors, and those doors will remain closed till the 19th of January. Now the Union worker will receive his pay, somewhere between 95-100% without having generated one labor hour for the company. This will not affect his vacation time or sick time.

Now I dont work union so when my company shuts down, I dont get paid. If I want to get paid, I will use either my sick time or vacation time. Now of course I would like to get paid, but I wont. I have no sense of entitlement (which I think is the major cause of this economic catastrophy). Is the CEO "entitled" to 29 million. I mean really, what on earth can a single man do that entitles him to that sort of money? But the same can be said for the worker. The worker has seen the CEO get this and in turn has determined that he too is entitled to something because it is his labor that made this possible.

I honestly believe that if we were to throw this entitlement to the curb, we would still be the richest most powerful nation on earth. We would be able to compete "which seems to be a bad work nowadays".

It gets really tiring to sit hear and read all these comments that sound just like a bunch of kids in a school yard. Insted of a bunch of name calling, trying to place the blame on someone and complaining about the situation instead of suggesting other solutions to the problem.

To put it bluntly, it's not the result of any one person's actions that this situation has occurred and the blame can not be put on the head of any one group of people. The politicians do whatever they can to see that they will keep being re-elected, management does what they can to try and keep their companies running and surviving while the workers are trying to stay afloat and give their families what they didn't have.

So insted of all the bashing, (union-non-union, management-labor, service industry-manufacturing industry, Republican-Democrat, North-South) why can't you (supposedly) intelligent) people come up with a few suggestions as to how you could help salvage our way of life.

If you can't afford a 5 or 10% paycut for a while, then you're probably living way ahead of your means anyway so figure out how to live at a little lower level. Figure out how you can help your friends or neighbors that don't have it as well as you do. Things are only going to get worse before they get better, so you had better have a plan for not only yourself but others you trust.  

What I would like to know is; how in the world did the foreign auto makers get to build cars in this country?   My Gosh, that was a stupid move on somebodies part.  Of course that was going to affect the Big-3. 

I have alway bought American & I hope I always will.

Steve

You are correct, the last three contracts negotiated have driven union wages down, but even if you factor in past wages at $20 adder its still only 10% of the cost of the car where is the other 90%, factor in corporate/CEO pay and tell me what percent  that is? again I don't dispute some of the union rules are riduclous those should be changed but the driving down of American workers pay is unacceptable, the foreign companies have been given tremendous tax relief and free land for their plants by the states their in and their health care is not even close to what the UAW's is of which the union has agreed to take over from the companies in 2009. Look this is all a side show, as I said in my earlier post the problems with American business is distribution of wealth and health care which is handy capping small business and the average family, until we tackle these issues the rest of this is just divide and conquer so as to distract from the fleecing of this nation by the few, by the way where is the venom and outrage to the financial sector(wall street and investment banks and mortgage Co's and hedge funds) for the three trillion dollar giveaway and counting they have received? these people have sold fake Rolex's of investments to city's, states, the American people,international investors ie governments,banks nations that hold our debt, you send people to jail for 20 years for robbing a liquor store, you bail these people out for robbing millions, as I have said before all of this is like the slave defending the master.

In the end, the government can not bail out the auto industry. The automakers have to make a profit to survive, if their cost profile is non-competitive they can't make a profit. Without a company, there is no union. The UAW will do a dis-service to their members if they don't make the tough concessions to allow the companies to continue in existance.

jbn

Do you also believe we have to let wall street fail????? after all they have no excuse for their crisis, they manufactured it all by themselves and they have been getting a bailout opposed to getting a loan like the auto industry

I had to laugh the first thing they did was cry how un fair it was and how they were going to run to Nancy and obama in January to make it all better..

Old Hippie, I didn't read any solutions in your post (just banter), as you called for from the children, also most people cannot afford a 5-10% pay DECREASE solely because they are barley feeding their families now.

Amazing how, again, it's always the worker that broke the company and not bad / negligent management.

palco,

 thanks for adding the 10% labor cost, I forgot to add it, 10 % ONLY 10% of the manufacturing cost of an automobile is ONLY 10 %.

To everyone thinking the UNION worker should take a pay cut, think of taking one yourself first before someone else should. Why are you SO deserving and another isn't? Are there changes the unions need to make sure, but lets get past the minor problems and lets put and keep the heat on the MEDIA to keep the heat up on the REGULATORS, and a defunct CONGRESS that cares nothing (apparently) about he American citizen or even the security of the entire economic structure of America, but more for the almighty dollar.

The failure of the auto makers is corporate generated all of these other BAILOUTS are from negligent deregulated fraud.

PLEASE do not just voice your anger here but PLEASE / PLEASE contact each and everyone of your Senators and Congress persons and let them know you are fed up and disgusted by their lack of ethics and concern for their own constituents and this great country that many have given their ALL for, just to be raped and pillaged by unethical and uncaring politicians and corporate mongrels.

I think what a lot of the union supporters are forgetting when they cry, 'how dare they expect the union to cut wages' and 'why don't they force other unions (electrical, plumbing, etc)to cut wages' and 'how would you feel if your wages were cut?" is that the auto industry is asking for a huge bailout! When you ask the government for money you have to accept that there are conditions for that money. If an industry can afford to survive on their own dime, they can make their own decisions. Once they come begging for help, they have to play by the rules that are offered. Take it or leave it. I do agree, though, that the executives at the top should also have to take a pay cut as part of the conditions for the bailout.  And for the previous poster who asks what would you do if you were expected to take a pay cut?--I would either live on less or look for another job. Not many of us have a union forcing our employer to pay us wages that can't be supported by the company we work for.

Chevmark

Thanks for correcting the propaganda. and for the rest of you who keep calling this bailout, its a loan, the bailout is for banks and wall street and their the reason our economy is in the collapsing.

Roy Wilson 336103: the $73 dollars an hour is misinformation and it is unethical of you to keep repeating that point.  The true number is $40 and hour and that includes wages and overtime and vacation pay.  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html

Even $40/hr is a huge sum....the average worker makes much much less than this and often without any benefits. I'm afraid your post won't gain any sympathy from me.

It isn't that huge of a sum.  It includes overtime, for example.  If the workers aren't making overtime, the amount per hour will go down.  It's management's decision to have workers work on, say Christmas, while you are enjoying your Christmas with your family.  I think the hourly pay is more like $27 and hour ( I hear on Thom Hartman radio).  That is working on an assemblyline doing dirty, dangerous and repetitve work. Not in some airconditioned cubicle. 

The cost to the company is $73 per hour. When we buy a car we pay that cost. That cost is put into the car, not just the $40 or whatever you want to say the employee makes. It is the $73 per hour that is unaffordable.

OpinionsRUs--I know what the pay scale is. My father and most of my relatives work in the GM factories. He doesn't work Christmas day (or any other holidays) and still makes a boatload of money with benefits galore.  And for your info, I do not work in an air conditioned cubicle nor do I make even close to $27/hr with any benefits. I think you are out of touch with reality if you think the average American worker makes what you consider to be 'not that huge of a sum'. Most of us work for companies that pay its workers what the business can support. If the business runs in the red, the workers take a pay cut or lose their jobs. I support myself the best I can without asking for government 'loans' that I may or may not be able to pay back.

Nan: if you like working for peanuts, then good for you! Just don't try to bring other Americans down.  27 an hour working full time is $1080  a week which is 4320 a month.  Take away a third for taxes and you have 2880.  Out of that 2880 you have heating bills, rent or mortgage, food bills and medical bills. This is not living the life of luxery.  What does a middle class family have left over after working all that?  $50?  No wonder they volunteer to work Christmas!

Martvol:  The amount you quote is just wrong.  Try to read my link.

Opinions and Nan and whomever ... while I respect you know what your relatives are paid in a paycheck.. that is NOT the cost per MAN HOUR... you see the UAW has negotiatied retirement, health insurance, etc that the company pays in ADDITION to your families take home pay .. those are true costs per MAN HOUR and when added together they come up to approx $74 per hour.. it is not dis-information.

Now in a small business if you pay say 20 per hour PLUS health insurance of $480 per month for an employee your costs BEFORE the Social Security and Medicare add on (another approx $2 per hour)  is 20 plus $3 (insurance) =$25 ... now factor in retirement in the UAW world into this small business (you would need an actuarial table to understand) but it would be approx $20 per person that the company must pay into a retirment fund for that employee - in our case as the poor guy only makes 20 per hour it is 10 dollars .. so the cost to the company in REAL MONEY in my hypothetical little company - based on the UAW formula

20 in pay ... plus 2 additional social security ... plue 3 for insurance .. plus 10 for retirement and this guy taking home half the base UAW wages costs the company $35 per hour ... in REAL money ...  Those of us who actually pay wages do understand this.. those who get wages - well many do not understand this .. mostly from ignorance .. not calling them dumb..  calling them ignorant .. big difference.. and THIS is the dis-information that the UNION has glossed over to the members for years and years...

DO YOU GET IT NOW? ...

As to "this is a loan" .. come on .. if the company still goes under (which it will without massive restructuring which is not part of the "loan") ... how do you think this LOAN will ever be repaid... more nonsense.. sorry ..

As to banks and wall street.... they NEVER should have been bailed out without teeth in the "bailout" ... just like this "loan" .. it is a gift from big business bush/cheney to them .. ask AIG .. they saw nothing wrong with getting billiions and throwing a party AND paying bonuses..  get that now?

Now I am ranting a tad .. but it really gets my goat to read some much dis-information ...  the truth..  whomever said write your congress is correct.. I wrote them on the bank bailout - and regardless of party affiliation I voted AGAINST any congressperson in my state who voted for the bailout .. in hindsight .. guys like me were right .. in my comments then I said that the money would never go to the homeowner who needed it ... and I like many others was right...

One final note... it does not matter a wit what a ceo makes .. that is another problem .. one wrong does not justify continuing another .. each subject need to be addressed - which is why I am so sure that this is a major mistake... and a "gift" with no teeth .. just rhetoric to fool the unwashed masses (I truly feel that is how this administration views us)

I am on the record again (not that it matters one iota in the real world) .. we will now "piss" 14-20 billion more dollars down the toilet (another 5-700 bucks in future taxes to every one of us)  .. and be in the same place in 3 months - same problems - same lack of solutions on the part of the big 3 ... any takers?

BOTTOMLINE:  Minimum Wage Earners working two or more part time jobs with no benefits nor healthcare as taxpayers are going to be paying for others to make more money.

Happy Holidays.

Here's another link.  Please stop spreading misinformation and try to educate yourselves.

http://www.uaw.org/auto/11_25_08auto2.cfm

Opinions R us

"Roy Wilson 336103: the $73 dollars an hour is misinformation and it is unethical of you to keep repeating that point.  The true number is $40 and hour and that includes wages and overtime and vacation pay."

I love how you always ignore the Benefits in your figures. With Benefits, which is the true hourly cost of a worker, UAW workers cost $73 per hour vs $44 per hour for a non-union auto worker. Let's tell the WHOLE truth. 

The line worker does not get to use the money that some other person, (a retiree) gets.  So to say this worker gets $73 an hour is disinformation, and is done on purpose to make this worker look like he or she makes too much.  Read my links Roy, and you will see that they take the sum of all the money they owe to retirees and to current workers, and then they divide it by the numbers of workers they have now, and since they downsized recently, that number is abnormally large.

ChevsMark says

"And by the way, the UAW represents more people in the medical profession and government workers than auto workers!"

Now I know why medical costs and Government costs are skyrocketing. Thanks for the info.

Opinions R us

"The line worker does not get to use the money that some other person, (a retiree) gets".

Nobody said the worker gets all of the $73 per hour, but it still costs the Company that much, on average, for labor, which is 3 times what the average manufacturing worker get in pay and benefits ($25 per hr.).

Bob in Lincoln--You're preaching to the choir. I fully understand what you're saying. What Opinion doesn't get is that the 'pay per hour' does not include all the glorious benefits the union workers get that are tacked onto that hourly wage. He also doesn't get that a company can't afford to pay more than the business brings in, regardless of union demands. When a company comes knocking on the taxpayer's door for a handout (or a 'loan' that may never be repaid), the company has to accept the conditions under which that loan is made. If you don't like it, move along. Those of us who enjoy 'working for peanuts' do not care to give up more of our paltry wages to support your over-inflated self-entitlement.

All your arguements are based on OPINON.  Cause + Effects = Results.

Fact not Opinon:  Fault Tolerance = Quality.  Physical Measurement becomes the determination of Quality as stated by American W.E. Deming, ignored by US, praised Internationally.

International Fault Tolerance (GM Opel, Ford AG, DaimlerChrysler AG, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA) = .5mm with a goal of .4mm

US Only Specification Fault Tolerance (GM, Ford, Chrysler) = .7mm

The only way that this lower Fault Tolerance can be achieved at a resonable price.  Automation as opposed to by Unions.  An example:  Arguing that Napoleonic War Muskets are better than Modern Automatic Weapons.

Because of the opposition to use automation by the Unions the Obese 3 lobbied for and received the passage of NAFTA, CAFTA, and all the other Free Trade Agreements allowing them without penalty to move manufacturing to locations that automation could be used.  The primary of these is Toluca, Mexico using 2002 US Bailout Money.  The preassembled vehicles from Toluca, Mexico are shipped to US Assembly (not manufacturing) Plants for one or two nuts, bolts or fastners installed and the Made In China "Made In US" Label applied.

In additon to the Toluca, Mexico Plants/Factories the Obese 3 started to negotitate with the Chinese Government.  With the result being US Bailout Money being used to build the Machau Factories/Plants and later September 2008 (25 Billion USD) being used to finalize the Shanghai Factories/Plants.  The Toluca, Mexico; Machau, China; and Shanghai, China Factories (automated Manufacturing) and Plants (Assembly) balance the high cost of Union Labor by decreasing the cost of parts.  Evidence: Dealership Parts Department "Made In" Labels.

Currently, the Real American Car Manufacturers (Americans building parts) are using extensive Automation, requiring a different "Skill Set".  These are Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA using automated robotics designed and developed by the US Military to produce ammunition and now US Military Equipment at Government Owned Factories/Plants Nationwide.  No the Obese 3 do not produce anything for the US Military due to the Buy US Only Products, Goods, and Services Laws.  Obese 3 parts made in Mexico, Canada, China disqualified them from US Military Contracts.  Also implies that the US Military can buy from Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA as real American US Only Products.  While the Obese 3 are the Foreigners.

The Bailout Money 18 Billion USD (17.4) is for a Restructuring Plan due March 2009.  That the Management as a Function of Management is supposed to have started when they could no longer run at a profit.

The proposed Restructuring Plan is:  Closure of 1/3 US Plants/Factories, Layoff 1/3 US "Work Force" retain the Mexican/Canadian/Chinese Plants/Factories and associated "Work Force".  To become "Financially Viable".  The proposed Implementation of the Restructing Plans will cost 150 Billion USD. - Congressional Testimony.

150 Billion USD + 17.4 Billion USD = actual cost of Bailout 167.4 Billion USD.

And yes, queenie45 your post 6.8 shows how the Unions have forced US Business to become traitors to remain in Business.

argue the facts, don't attack the messager.

Note: Forgot to add something about the Machau, China and Shanghai, China Obese 3 Auto Factories.  They are flexible enough to retool and die in days using automation better than current US CNC technology.  And can be used to build AKMs, AK-47s, SVDs, RPG-7s, RKG-3s, SKSs, and other ChiCom (Chinese Communist) weapons sold internationally to kill US Military.  As evidenced by captured weapons with ChiCom markings at Iraq.

Opinions R us,

This is right from your article you said I did not read.  I wonder if you read it or just the first paragraph???

The calculations show, accurately enough, that for every hour a unionized worker puts in, one of the Big Three really does spend about $73 on compensation. So the number isn’t made up. But it is the combination of three very different categories.

Roy Wilson

You keep saying $73 an hour including benefits....get it right that figure is a Republican talking point , its a $2. dollar difference $46 for Toyota/Honda, $48 UAW.

Opinions R us,

This is from your second article...Enjoy.

But then what's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits -- namely, health insurance and pensions -- and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages -- again, $28 per hour -- and you get the $70 figure. Voila.

Remember this is cost to the company. It is Employee benefit. When this hourly employee retires, he get his pension without having to work an hour.  The IS 100% employee compensation.

david-475776, every informative, I knew and/or suspected a lot of that activity, but didn't have specifics.

Thank you.

If anyone is interested - I wrote the following opinion piece on this and posted it to the politics section - I will not clutter up this thread with the entire article! .. link below:

One Mans Opinion on the bailout - or the opening of pandora's box!

http://mmugwomper.newsvine.com/_news/2008/12/22/2237337-one-mans-opinion-on-the-bailout-or-the-opening-of-pandoras-box

I was just wondering, everyone seems to have and opinion on here, one way or the other, how many people have contacted or e-mail there representitives about how they feel. I know a lot people believe the system is broken, but at the time its all we have. I remember hearing the $700b bailout hit the skids for a while when public officals received a huge out pouring from the public against it. Ya it still went threw. but atleast they had to be thinking in the back of there mind, 80%(just a made up number to show a point) of the people that voted me here dont or do want this.

Another thought, hold them accountable, not by blogging,(yes this a great forum for debate, but i doubt it affects votes on the senate floor) but by your vote. House and senate vote records are public, when the next elections come around, check thier records, dont just believe there ads on tv. While the approval ratings for the current admin, are way low, the ones for the sitting congresional bodies are not very good either, but yet more incumbents return to thier seats than new comers, how is this? 

I've seen that exact thing. Productive, motivated people come to a halt waiting for a union person to show up to : carry a 2 pound box, plug in a cable, move a trash can... If they do it for them self to get the job done, they get fined.

That system only works when you have no competition, UAW people.

Martvol: you can cherry pick all you want , but I hope other newsviners with open minds will read the articles and get it right.

of course not you know as well as I that the big wheels never have to give anything up just the little guy who made them big wheels in the first place

I agree, so what if the CEO is willing to work for $1 a year, he can because he has his other monies coming in in the form of bonuses and stock options.  And how about the VP's and middle management (which in these corporations, are way too many for the job needed), is their work so much more important than the actual person who makes the product, why isn't there a clamoring to lower their wages?  Why is it the line personnel that needs their salary cut?

I think Bush needs to look at pay structure overall, not just at the Union workers.  He also needs to protect the actual WORKER and not the CEO, afterall they are the ones that fuel the economy, they will spend their paychecks!

Gee Storm....George Bush violates everything that the Republican party stands for to bend to the demands of the UAW and you still criticize the guy. He should have listened to the Republican senators and let the industry tank!

What are you talking about, he violated one of the biggest Republican mantras: small government..his presidency has been the reverse!  So what's your story? 

As to those Republicans senators, they all have an ulterior motives, they wanted to make sure the foreign factories in their backyards were safe, what with all the tax incentives given to them, were does that mean those taxpayers are better off? 

It seems that "Made in the USA" now means, if the product is "Made in the US with foreign workers"..it's okay.  WTF?

If you thinkl GWB is reversing small government, just wait until the Democrats get started.

There has to be cuts in both areas!  In management with cuts in CEO and management pay!  If this is not done, the we taxpayers should insist on immediate payback of the loans as part of the process.

Also wages in the rank and file are not consistent either. 

We know that the companies are not effiecient as the Japanese have come into the States and done more with less.  They do have the overhead back in Japan that is not always counted I think.  I wonder though if top to bottom the cuts will be made by GM, Chrysler and yes Ford again to retain the competitiveness needed.

If you look at Obama's plan to bail us out, you will see it calls for massive increase in gov. employees.  Plus an advisory group to tell every other government how to restructure their government - which he thinks he should be able to do.  But that's not what this article was about. 

The concession are for all Big 3 including management and bonuses -- well, so far only 2 of the Big 3 because Ford has not asked for any money yet.

Ward. I doubt it!  Union is already SCREAMING about no cuts.I guess they would rather go down with the ship. Just like all of the other ships they have sunk. Steel, Garments, Electrical, Parts Factories, etc..

I have the perfect answer to the Union extortionists and the Obamacrats. Never buy a Union made car again & urge every American to do the same! No matter what happens with the bailout! It's time to abolish the unions. It won't take much convincing as we are completely disgusted with the Unions & have been for a very very long time. 

Management & Executives need to be replaced too and have their huge bonuses clawed back. We can hire some smart management from Toyota, Honda or BMW.

Why don't these bailouts come with the Federal pay scale?

No one should be compensated (total compensation, including bonuses) more that the President of the US.  NO ONE.

Also, since the execs have been paid so much for so many years, why don't they invest in the tax payer?  Since the Feds are bailing out the companies that they drove into the ground, why aren't they forced to invest some other their millions in T-bills?  the taspayer bails their company out, and they reciprocate to the taxpayer by bolstering the Fed.

Man, you union haters are out in full force on here. Afterall, if these corp. execs. have to worry about how they're going to make it by having to give up their $10 to $20 million bonuses this year, by golly the american worker should be happy making concessions down to the minimum wage. What a shining example of respect and human dignity we are portraying to the rest of world.

lou365905. you are an idiot. read the headlines the ceo are working for $1.00 per year. if you want to cut them some more be my guest it will save a lot of money....dope read the papers

Hopefully, it will be business as usual for the salaried people.  They were the first to be "told" they were going to have to pay for their insurance.  When the union was "asked" to pay for some of it, they told management to go pound sand! 

Let's see... there is layoff benefits for the union. None for salaried, they are terminated!

Let's see... there's the job bank for the union. None of that for salaried, see above.

Let's see...there's the item about getting transferred.  THe salary people are given one option; take the transfer we offr you, or you are officially terminated. The union can say no thanks, and continue to draw layoff or job bank benefits.

Anything else you want to know?

Rich, they are NOT working for a $1 a year.  They are reducing their "salary" to $1 a year, and getting it all back in deferred compensation and stock.

Capt cool - I've beEN reading these posts trying to see where I stand on this issue - right now I'm in the middle - HOWEVER when you make the statement "making concessions down to miminum wage" - I just have to say wtf? Since when is $24 and hour "with benefits" MINIMUM WAGE? If this is how you really feel then you need a "reality check".

One other thing - the auto plants are closing for 1 month - I felt pretty bad about this - especially with the Holidays and all UNTIL I just read the workers will be getting 95% OF THEIR PAY - WHAT?

Plant closings, money from the government to save your jobs and YOU STILL GET 95% OF YOUR PAY?
WHERE CAN I SIGN UP?

I wonder if all of the "auto support industries" who will have to shut down will be giving their workers 95% - yeah, that's what I thought!

  You have no idea what you are talking about at all.

UAW workers at Ford and GM agreed to a health-care cost-sharing deal during an unusual round of mid-contract negotiations in 2005. Closing the competition gap with Japanese auto makers

Logdump - if you are refering to the 95% pay - you are the one who is not informed!

yep. they need to tell their bosses/employers to step down. let the employees run the company and get at least 3 quarters of all income that is made. uaw needs to step up and demand more, from their employers. and the big 3 needs to ask for waaay more then just 34 billion from taxpayers. its not enough! i think 800 billion should do it. uaw, no concessions, dont do it. taxpayers owe it to u. they need to pay up, or shut up. getting paid for being laid off for years, yep, damn straight. every business needs to do that. what is wrong with that? damn employers. its soo wrong. uaw, do a walk out. show them who's really the boss. they need to be taught a lesson, in gratitude. the scum.

I agree he should have let them rot.. But he was trying to look out for the worker.. Something the dems are not willing to do without the republican help.. Nancy will do what ever they ask for in January and obama will rubber stamp her request.

carbon - I agree. The UAW needs to say no to Government money and then go on strike. The rest of the USA owes it to them, we'll pay their salary while they strike. I think Americans will eventually realize how important line workers really are. I think a 6 month strike will do the trick!

Yeah.... The UAW can go on strike.  Permanently. Let the Big 3 hire motivated, hardworking individuals that will be happy to work for half of the contractual wage and benefits and then they can return to profitability. 

I had a union in my warehouse  - even though I owned the company - if I lifted a box to bring into my office, I ended up with a shop steward filing an "violation" notice.

Once we broke the union - our employees found out that if they were productive - they made more - and if they were slackers - they were gone. I am NO fan of unions in what they have become... though the original premise was great and in fact necessary - today their time has long passed and their leadership and policies are as much to blame for the demise of big industry as are the CEO's  - both forgot the meaning of of "incentive" compensation (money for results) .. and just like todays athletes and movie stars they think they have a right to  "entitlement" compensation! (ridiculous money in spite of company or individual performance)

Once we broke the union -

Good for you! How American of you!

- our employees found out that if they were productive - they made more -

And even more imprtantly, so did you off of their work!

Bob well said. I agree totally

Florida_KES.....

the reason to employee workers is to make money off their work .. not to provide them with money for being "present" ... that is why guys like me own business - we are interested in making money off our investment, staff and efforts... get it?

And it is truly American to make money off their work and even more American to pay the employees bonuses for just that... something unions forgot .. and in our case - as it turned out - the slackers were gone, the workers who would have left as we would have had no choice but to "promote" the slackers due to length of service requirements ended up staying and advancing ..  so yes.. that is truly how "American" in both spirit and substance!

I am an entrepenuer.. not a communist .. so if you do not like the way we think .. go to some country that rewards being "present" and not "productive" ...

Florida-kes, What is your problem?  What Bob, Lincoln Co.was saying is exactly how it should be. AND, I'll bet his Co is not going to the Govt. looking for a hand-out either, because He is a PRODUCTIVE contribution to the economy, instead of being a hinderance.  Hooray for you Bob!!!!!!! You got the union out of your business. Probably the biggest step you ever made towards yours AND YOUR WORKERs success.

Because I don't believe in unions does not make me unamerican. You been lessoning to much to the union proproganda. I'm as much American as the next person And I have learned to think for my self.

Bob, you'd be a little more credible if you stopped contradicting yourself.

I do not and have never contradicted myself.. I am very clear in what I say ... you just need to read it carefully with an open mind...  cite clear cut.. in context examples when you attack someones credibility ...

We busted a union in my company in 1982 .. and ended up with 50 more employees and they made more money - and bonuses - and we made money.. I sold the company  in 1990 and it still exists to this day.  Today I am a small business owner - resenting the bailout, buyout and payout mentality ... but still productive and still pay my own way ...  when you or anyone else STAND UP can say the same.. let me know .. you have a right to your opinion .. but cite some facts .. not just bash my credibility based on your own no fact post ... glad to debate what you may view as cotradictions - when I see some!

Fact 1 .. UAW workers COST the company about 74 bucks per man hour..  Fact 2 - what a ceo makes, however wrong does not justify rule #1 .. get over it . Fact #3 - This administration is giving away our futures .. period... and it is wrong... FINAL FACT.. making cars no one wants - or quality that is poor - or maintaining an outdated, outmoded dealer network does not make fact 1,2 or 3 anymore right or wrong.. they stand each on their own merits.

And yes .. I was a union memeber in college ... still think it was not the proper way to go . but since the industry I had a part time job in REQUIRED you to join the union - or not work - had no real choice did I?

   So what? Rules are rules and most are in place for safety reasons. If the person is not present to do the job when required it is managements fault not the union and that happens frequently. This is like the old Reagan Lady driving up in a pink Caddilac to pick up her welfare check and people who frequent those right wing anti union sights are told to post this nonsense.

I think we have two Bob"s here, Stand up. Pay attention

I have a sister who works in County Government;..which is of course Unionized...i'f the office personnel in her department decide their work environment is not to their liking; (like maybe it's a little to hot or cold in their office); they are allowed to leave and go home.....a bunch of pampered wimps!!!

Unions are the worst thing for the American worker they have made them lazy and un productive and that is probably why they put out such a crappy product.

Bob in Lincoln--You're preaching to the choir. I fully understand what you're saying. What Opinion doesn't get is that the 'pay per hour' does not include all the glorious benefits the union workers get that are tacked onto that hourly wage. He also doesn't get that a company can't afford to pay more than the business brings in, regardless of union demands. When a company comes knocking on the taxpayer's door for a handout (or a 'loan' that may never be repaid), the company has to accept the conditions under which that loan is made. If you don't like it, move along. Those of us who enjoy 'working for peanuts' do not care to give up more of our paltry wages to support your over-inflated self-entitlement.

Nan-377725 -- You are talking about legacy payouts, money promised to the people who made the Chevy Bel-Aire etc.  If we take away the pensions of people already retired  who is going to pay for all those old people kicked out of their retirement home?  The taxpayers?

Nobody is talking about taking pensions completely away from anyone. Partial cuts need to be made all along the line--from hourly wages to benefit packages that are presently nearly all-encompassing (medical, dental, vision, prescription, etc). You won't find many American workers who are provided the wealth of expensive benefits that union workers are provided. There is a lot of gray area between kicking grandpa out of the retirement home and the level of pension and benefits that are currently provided. The bottom line is: if the business cannot sustain the level of wages/benefits to employees, something has to give. The giving should come from the top on down. Asking the rest of the country to provide the high level of compensation the union members are used to when most of those being asked don't even have close to that level is a bit ballsy, don't you think?

Florida_KES....  You're right, businesses should not make any money. That is being oppressive to the laborer.

You would really like Russia. May I help you pack your bags?

Minimum wage is 6.55 an hour and soon to be 7.25 an hour.  Eight bucks an hour is unreasonable for that type of work.  I think 18 to 20  is closer to fair wage.

When I was hired at a UAW plant the key to success was the first 90 days. If you busted your butt they kept you and you were rewarded with the right to pay union dues.  Every new hire was informed by union stewards about the first 90 days, in fact it became the running joke in the plant, bust it for 90 and stroke it for the rest. After a very short 120 days I was earning the same wages as the guy who had worked there for 25 years.

Two Cents Worth-You got it correct. Everyone stop and take a good look at Anderson Indiana, in the 70'S it had the strongest UAW union in the world, everyone look to them to set the contracts. GM give them what every they darn well wanted, now look at Anderson, it is a ghost town. My Ex-wife use to work 2 hours out of every 8 putting 2 screws in to every can that came by, does this make sense, NO I DON'T THINK SO, DO YOU? If you do you must be a UAW worker willing to take your plant down, because you don't care you still get 90% or more of your pay up to a year. That is just sad, and I am sure the people in Anderson Indiana wish they could do things over, but then again I dought it as I still know some morons there.

18 to 20 per hour for doing what? You think just because you work you are suposed to get the high wages. If you are skilled and productive yes. but if your are not minimal wage is to much.

From Anderson In.  That is exactly what is happening to Mich.  They can throw all of the money they want at it but it won't fix the problem. The unions caused all of the little facturies to go under and now they are causing the big ones to go  under as well. It won't be long either.

Yeah, your probably right Bevos. But watch out, cause after their done busting the unions, the rest of them will come after the workers! Get ready to be asked to take a pay cut! Will you be for it then when it affects your wallet?

Lockedin. The rest of whom will come after the workers? I never made much over Minimum Wage, Now I live on SS. Don't have a retirement check. What I live on is so low they wouldn't want it. But I own my home and raise most of my own food. I worked TWO jobs a lot of the time so my boys could have a few extras that unions caused to be overpriced, and to pay my bills. Now I don't have to worry about it, but I can still think. And as long as I can think, I will fight the ones that have put this country in the shape it is in.

   Another right wing anti labor spew which is meanigless. Trying to get wages down so they can hir illegals. Nice American first post.

LOL it is the Unions who support the illegals.. LOL THE AFL-CIO is the biggest supporter of illegals.

logdump. Is it American to ask someone making $15/hr to pay more taxes so the UAW worker can maintain $30/hr?

This isn't about right wing / left wing or illegal immigrants really, it's about whether GM and Chrysler are viable businesses anymore. Did you understand all that?

Part of attaining parity would have to be cutting their retirees loose.

After all, the foreign companies haven't been operating in the US long enough to have many retirees, and those they have are in defined contribution plans, not defined benefit plans.

To be fair, the current workers should only bare part of the change, and the retirees are going to be the ones who get screwed. 

I'm sure the executives and middle management will throw the retirees under the bus to save their own bloated paychecks.

The US auto industry simply needs to attain parity with its foreign competitors

So you are saying we should let the rest of the world control our peoples wages. What country are you from China?

I don't think he's from China, but I would bet that he would want the auto workers to be paid on the chinese pay scale.  Only the workers, though, because the CEO's and the 100s in management are so much better than the workers they deserve the millions they get in salary and bonuses.

You can't build the same quality car for the same price if your labor costs are way out of line, which they have been. As an engineer, you'd like to do things, but you can't because of the cost constraints. Bottom line, the UAW has been trying to bankrupt the Big 3 for the last 20 years, and they have almost succeeded.

Sooo, let me see if I understand you...  You are saying that the UAW, who represent those who build automobiles, have been trying to drive the Big 3 into bankruptcy.  So, the UAW has been trying to eliminate the jobs that employ their members?

Just checking.

The big 3 of this country need to wake up.  The bottom line is that the American car companies are not producing a car that Americans want. 

They sure as hell were until the economy tanked....or are just pretending that everyone and their mother was driving a SUV or pickup?

And of course, we'll ignore that nearly all of the vaunted foreign car makers jumped onto the bigger is better bandwagon as well...

But it's the domestic car companies and labor union fault that oil speculators drove the price of oil up to $150????

Toyota is in the same predicament and they have non union shops. So where is the logic that it is the unions fault. Ever since Reagan it has been hate the unions so the fat cats can take more home and hide it. UAW workers get paid a fair price for what they do. Also a lot of wages are based on these contracts. Take for instance health care. Management in several cases with the teamsters and the UAW pushed healthcare as an option to higher wages back when it was cheap. I have owned businesses and believe me the two shops I had that were union were far better than the one I had that was not union. For a while before I started my first business I was a union steward for 3 years. The only time we took any grievous to management was if they violated the rules or if it had to do with safety. Petty filings were dismissed by the union before we bothered management. As to this matter of Unions and having to wait for a union member to do something for you is a lot of hogwash. Outsiders in a plant are not familiar with the rules of a union plant and there are many concerns in those plants that require a trained person to do those tasks. Here in my area on stage shows and the like the work is performed by a union run shop. You have to hire union workers to set up. This is done for safety not to get a union guy work. By doing so the have reduced the number of accidents by two thirds.

      As to the matter of pay for non work as it is now very few workers get paid for not producing anything and are on call to fill any vacancy that pops up. This protects the workers and management. When the plants were producing at full capacity it saved them money as they could tap those banks for hourly pay and not have to pay overtime so it was an investment for the Auto mfgs as well as the union workers and kept them from drawing unemployment.

      It is a very sad day when these workers are attacked for getting what they deserve for the work they do. Republican union busting because Unions support Democrats is legendary.

It also takes the car companies too long to retool.  When they closed the Saturn plant to retool, it took 18 months.  I understand that the foreign auto plants can retool very quickly.

BTW, when they go back to the feds in March for more money, they will get it.  The government thought processes will be that if the auto companies don't get the additional money then the government runs the risk of losing all the $17B already loaned.  Feed the already overfed hogs.

Fla kes

They produced SUV and trucks because they had to because they make the most profit to be able to pay the overhead. Small sedans they lost money on. So when the gas pieces went nuts they no longer could sell these gas hogs and now can't make a profit. So now that they have only a few sedans to sell the could not make a profit if they tried.

But they only make a profit on a gas hog when it sells.  So Americans must have been buying them.

After all, the F150 series was the best selling vehicle for how many years in a row?

Face it, Americans want out-sized vehicles to haul our out-sizes asses.

okay you people,,the auto industry made gas guzzlers because,,,,,,everyone who bought one wanted to have something BIGGER than everyone else. I know of mmmmmany people who bought SUV's because they figured if they got in an accident they would come out better than the guy in his small car. Parents bought bigger car's for teanager's so they would be safe and the little old lady who would never use the back of her truck, bought bigger to be safer too. As for the union worker's having to give up part of thier pay, so be it, everyone else has had to. I must add, I never met so many people who are experts on how the union works., I spent 5 yrs working for a company , My title was personal director and when the employee's wanted a union, they had to go on strike to get the Union in, The big shot's came to the plant and asked why did I think they wanted a union and why were they unhappy???They worked for the lowest pay anywhere ,in a factory that wasn/t heated or air conditioned making your pillow and comforter,s. By the way, this plant was located in the north east, After a 18 month strike the company signed a contract with the Union. Botton line, 3 yr contract,,,,very little yr 1,,,,a little more yr 2,,,,a good contract yr 3......The company moved the business to a southern state the biginning of yr 3,,,because the labor was cheaper. I ranted this story because if any of you folks out there who think THE COMPANY is going to care about the worker,,,,,,NO NO NO THEY ARE ONLY GOING TO PAY WHAT THEY HAVE TO and in the end, they don't move thier companies to southern state's anymore,,,,,they move them out of the country, so PLEASE STOP BASHING THE UNION/S, THEY PROBABLY IMPROVED YOUR WORKING CONDITION BY THIER OWN PERONAL SWEAT,,,so, say thank you and move on, look to the head of the company, not at the bottom of the ladder, and Pray, you never have to work in the condition's they did

One of the strongest arguments used for the increasing size of vehicles on our roads is safety.  How many of you believe that if a Honda Civic got in an accident with an F-250 that there is little to no chance that the occupants of the Honda would survive?  Go ahead... let's see a show of hands...  Thought so.

But, that isn't the case, any more.  Designers have strengthened the chassis of passenger cars to such an extent that they have a great chance of surviving with little, or no, injury, depending on the type of crash.

I saw a test video, not too long ago, where some testers drove a SmartCar, you know... the tiny little car making the news lately... anyway, they drove this SmartCar into a concrete barrier at 75 miles per hour.  You know what?  It was totalled.  Yep!  BUT, the passenger compartment was just fine.  The doors were still able to open and close, and latch, just fine.  Get that?  Tiny car... 75 mph into a concrete barrier, and you could still open and close the door.

I found this video on YouTube, so if you're interested, take a look.

6.8  Your argument shows how unions forced the companies to leave and then you beg for people to back the unions.  Do you see anything illogical in your argument?

I did the same thing and bought a Mazda CX7. A way better car than anything GM or Ford or Chrysler was putting out..

Ford owned Mazda, didn't they?

they just have stock in the company i believe.

We used to have a garment industry and a steel industry and an electronics industry. Lets bust all the unions and pay everybody 7.50 an hour and keep raising prices on goods and lets see how long this country lasts. The time has come for stronger unions. I was raised in the days when there were few unions and believe me you do not want to go back to that.

In the 20 and 30 yes their was a need for unions, worker were uneducated and it was hard to change jobs in the 2 tier  political system and it needed to be changed. And it was by unions. Then organized crime found a way to make money and have power and they got envolved in it. They pushed harder and harder on business to pay more. Now the problem is most workers are more educated and don't need the union to leverage the employer for better pay, They can do this by them selves and they have the skills to go to the highest bidder to sell these skills. The more you can help a company grow and make a profit the more valueable you are to them. Now tell me why you need the union to get a job with fair pay for your skills?

Is it education or the skill level thats that problem?

It really irritates me that the UAW workers have taken advantage of their union and made the word "union" a bad word.  I have always been a supporter of unions in "theory" but when the workers see how much they can get paid with the smallest amount of work they make the idea of a union bad.  Unions were designed for a good reason but the people take advantage and ruin everything.

The workers are to blame.  They are unproductive and stubborn.  Their unwillingness to recognise that the have been slowly killing the Big 3, the very hand that feeds them, for decades makes me sick.  I bet they have contests and who can do least work.  I'm sure they celebrate when they get to sit on their a$$ all day playing cards while earning 95% of their wage.  They deserve all the ill will they are receiving.

Logdump. Duh!!!!The Garment ,Steele, & Electronics Industries were ALL UNIONIZED. That's what happened to them. The UNION put them out of business , just like they are putting the Big Three out of business. They keep raising wages which causes the Co to raise prices until nobody can afford them, then the Co. goes out of business. Because NOBODY IS BUYING THEIR PRODUCT. That is what happens everytime the Union gets involved in a business.

then why did those industries move away from the southern states that they went to for lower wage costs?  Even though they were non-union when they moved south, that was low enough when you can get 3rd world workers to do it for even less.  How low are we willing to let our wages go?  Will we go to 3rd world wage levels to keep jobs?

Loddump - exactly what industries are "going to be left" for you to uniionize?

Big Tee - your points are valid about the lower wages - but in response to we will go to 3rd World wages to keep jobs - when it comes to the point of putting food on the table there are many, many out there who would be willing to work for $24.00 hour ---and if the BIg 3 close and the "union funds" that have been paying workers 80% of their pay for up to 4 years runs dry - these people will be willing to do anyting for $15.00 an hour if necessary....

I agree with you in spirit - but reality is about (or already has) that low wages will beat no wages...

Pat-293163  And when Obama gets his tax plan in place your daughter on disability will have to pay 28% tax on any profit she makes off the equity of her home sale.

Sad day indeed....

Pat.I know how you feel. My son lost his job three yrs ago. His Co shut down . His wife's too a yr ago. He does odd jobs because there are no jobs available in Mich. She gets unemployment for a little while yet. He is looking at going to jail because they have reached a point of, either they eat or he pays his child support. They lost their house a yr. ago.        I too believe Obama is going to pull us out of this.  It's going to take us sucking it up and pacing ourselves.                                           And Rockyroad, you are full of it. You don't even know what you are talking about.

why does everyone think when Obama comes into office everything is going to be okay???? The last time I checked He was a Human Being just like the rest of us....In order for this country to move foward, __every Human Being is going to have to contribute to it's sucess....Please don't assume 1 person is going to make everything better. Your grown ups and you can't depend on Mom to make all your problems go away....Just had to post this, and yes,,,I hope that our new president will lead all us Mortal's out of the hell this country is headed for, Grown up,,, and learn to earn a better tomarrow

Rockyroad - I've noticed one thing since the election has passed - very few people are concerned "about taxes anymore" - the reason - if you are not working tax increases aren't going to affect you anymore!

I wonder if the workers at the BIg 3 are worried about potential tax inceases?

I heard about "JOe the Plumber" and how the "proposed tax increases" would ruin "small business" - as a small business owner let me say this - If after all is said and done and I have an increase on everythinig "I net" about $250,000 then bring it on -- I can assure you, that will be the least of my problems!!!!

Queenie,    Obama Has a plan to PUT PEOPLE BACK TO WORK. What other Pres. In the last fifty yrs. has actually come up with ANYTHING to put people to work? NONE!  They have come up with Housing for the poor, Food for the hungry and poor. Health care and clothing for the poor. But those are GIFTS.  Not a way to earn their own living. About 25 yrs ago a Gov. of Mich. tried to put people on Welfare to work to earn some of the money they were already getting, But, I think someone decided it was not fair to further traumatize someone who is poor by making them work too.        He may not succeed in totally turning this country around, but He is TRYING.  And personally, I believe he WILL succeed

That was Bill Clinton and the President Hilliary Clinton that wanted that.....  and who is back in office now???  Hillary..

Do away with NAFTA NOW!!!!   Help the economy!!  Ross Perot warned us this would happen!!

What foreign car company from a NAFTA nathion is helping to sink the big 3? NAFTA is a north american trade agreement, that is between Canada, Mexica,and the US, I do not know of one single Mexican or Canadian car company that competes against the big 3.

Just so you know Japan, China, and Korea are all in Asia, which is neither in North America, nor part of NAFTA.

Kid Rock...woo hoo!

I do argree that Japanese cars are well made, especially back in the 70s and 80s. But the American cars are very good now...its not like it was back then. Foreign car parts are more expensive and difficult to work on yourself. Need ots of specialty tools. When one of our American cars need something replaced or rebuilt, we can do it ourselves. My daughter's Honda? Nope...havent a clue.

People keep bashing the unions. I disagree with some that say they have outlived their usefulness. Sorry, but a corporation is not going to give you good wages, especially in this economy, unless they have to. The reason the foreign plants in the south make good money and benefits is because there is the possibility of a union that could come in. Break the union, and all bets are out the window.

Another factor people don't seem to get, the plants in the south, thier workers make about the same as the Michigan workers due to the cost of living. The government wants them to put the retirement and healthcare in the stock market??? Are you kidding me? Even putting it in the company stock is a bad idea...just ask the people from Enron. The CEOs should get no bonus. Period. Cut management because that's where most of the cost for these cars come from.

And remember people, this money is coming from the bail out for the banks. I'd rather the auto workers get it than the big bank CEOs.

Remember what FORD stands for" Fix Or Repair Daily". I used to buy and owned American cars, Ford, Olsmobile, Pontiac, Chevy, but when I bought my first Toyota Camry, I noticed the difference between and Ameican built car and a Japanese built car. Never bought an American made car since. Why do you think Japanses made cars are better than US made cars? However, lately I noticed some American cars, like Chevy Malibu, Chrysler 300, Ford Mustang, are really looking good. But I wonder if the workmaship and/or quality as are good as Japanse made cars? Does the UAW have anything to do with the quality of US made cars?

actually the turning japanese tune is about something totally different.

tedgarcia,

how many of those "american" cars you mentioned are actually made in America? I think that if I went outside and looked, both my Dodge pickups would've been made either in Mexico or Canada.

"man who have sex on ground have piece on earth"....??? WTF!!....did Cunfucious really say that??..I thought that came from Jesus!!

I disagree.  American cars are great.  I just bought a UAW made Pontiac yesterday and it is a sweet ride.  It has high ratings from Consumers Reports.  I will give my other UAW car to my nephew.  It has 130000 miles on it and is still going strong.   By the way the Toyota Corolla is UAW made and has been a favorite car for years.

All your arguements are based on OPINON.

Fact not Opinon:  Fault Tolerance = Quality.  Physical Measurement becomes the determination of Quality.

International Fault Tolerance (GM Opel, Ford AG, DaimlerChrysler AG, Mercedes Benz, BMW, Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA) = .5mm with a goal of .4mm

US Only Specification Fault Tolerance (GM, Ford, Chrysler) = .7mm

The only way that this lower Fault Tolerance can be achieved at a resonable price.  Automation as opposed to by Unions.  An example:  Arguing that Napoleonic War Muskets are better than Modern Automatic Weapons.

Because of the opposition to use automation by the Unions the Obese 3 lobbied for and received the passage of NAFTA, CAFTA, and all the other Free Trade Agreements allowing them without penalty to move manufacturing to locations that automation could be used.  The primary of these is Toluca, Mexico using 2002 US Bailout Money.  The preassembled vehicles from Toluca, Mexico are shipped to US Assembly (not manufacturing) Plants for one or two nuts, bolts or fastners installed and the Made In China Made In US Label applied. 

In additon to the Toluca, Mexico Plants/Factories the Obese 3 started to negotitate with the Chinese Government.  With the result being US Bailout Money being used to build the Machau Factories/Plants and later September 2008 (25 Billion USD) being used to finalize the Shanghai Factories/Plants.  The Toluca, Mexico; Machau, China; and Shanghai, China Factories (automated Manufacturing) and Plants (Assembly) balance the high cost of Union Labor by decreasing the cost of parts.

Currently, the Real American Car Manufacturers (Americans building parts) are using extensive Automation, requiring a different "Skill Set".  These are Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA using automated robotics designed and developed by the US Military to produce ammunition and now US Military Equipment at Government Owned Factories/Plants Nationwide.  No the Obese 3 do not produce anything for the US Military due to the Buy US Only Products, Goods, and Services Laws.  Obese 3 parts made in Mexico, Canada, China disqualified them from US Military Contracts.  Also implies that the US Military can buy from Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA as real American US Only Products.  While the Obese 3 are the Foreigners.

The Bailout Money 18 Billion USD (17.4) is for a Restructuring Plan due March 2009.  That the Management as a Function of Management is supposed to have started when they could no longer run at a profit.

The proposed Restructuring Plan is:  Closure of 1/3 US Plants/Factories, Layoff 1/3 US "Work Force" retain the Mexican/Canadian/Chinese Plants/Factories and associated "Work Force".  To become "Financially Viable".

And yes, queenie45 your post 6.8 shows how the Unions have forced US Business to become traitors to remain in Business.

argue the facts, don't attack the messager.

Add to 10.7

Forgot to add something about the Machau, China and Shanghai, China Obese 3 Auto Factories.  They are flexible enough to retool and die in days using automation better than current US CNC technology.  And can be used to build AKMs, AK-47s, SVDs, RPG-7s, RKG-3s, SKSs, and other ChiCom (Chinese Communist) weapons sold internationally to kill US Military.

Add to 10.7

Update: The proposed Implementation of the Restructing Plans will cost 150 Billion USD. - Congressional Testimony.

150 Billion USD + 17.4 Billion USD = actual cost of Bailout 167.4 Billion USD.

David475776: So my fault tolerence was .7.  My American made car still did not fall apart after 11 years.  So is that relevent?

I have a 1992 Olds with over 220,000 miles on it that has never had a problem either by your logic that makes a gm car better than you toyota.

Well, I had a 1994 Olds Cutlass and when it had less than 100,000 miles on it the tie rod on the left front wheel broke while I was turning a corner in town. If it had happened when I was going 70 mph on the highway I probably wouldn't be here today. Now I own a Toyota.

I have owned Ford (POS)  Chevy (not bad but all the paint fell off)  Dodge (HUGE POS)

I still broke down in 2002 and bought a Chevy trailblazer (fell for that buy American BS) and it has cost me 5 times the amount in repairs than my 2000 Toyota Tundra.

I was speaking rhetorically about the mileage, I have 256K on orginal enigine-yes it burns a little oil and puts out a little blue smoke for the first 30 seconds. I pan to keepit until 300K and may purchase a 560 HP Caddy when it is a couple of years old. I'm a firm believer in oil changes and yes american cars should last too but the quality just doesn't come close but the American cars are getting better. Go Oldsmobile!!! I was grumpy this morning and will buy American again-and give the Big three a chance to redeem themselves! It will be a GM!

I own 2 fords ,both have over 200,000 miles, no rust and have had no major problems,my last ford I sold with 322,000 miles. I just have a hard time with the excuse that jap cars are sooooo much better quality

Screwed, I just sold a (1985 )Toyota Camry wagon that had 275,000 miles on it. I parked it three yrs ago, because the reverse went out in it. But it still started right up when the guy came to look at it. No rust either. The guy was really happy to get it. Said it was well worth putting a transmission in it.

I agree with you Miller-781428 and here is a little 101 in Business:

CoG (for those in UAW who dont jknow what that means: Cost of Goods of the product you are manufacturing - should include max 1/3 in labor cost (ALL COST INCL. ALL BENI ETC) to be a profitable company and keep the doors open.

I paid my employees (in a manufacturing plant NON UNION) for results and paid bonusses for exeeding goals and I paid Benifits matched 401 K 100%. I had some of the UNIONS were trying to establish a Union in my place - guess what they are GONE I showed them the door and placed a restraining order against them.

Bottom line my employees applauded and where happy.

The old cut and paste with headers huh means you go in the troll section

And on the other side of the dam......are people who can't or won't buy a new car anyway.

stevo....I think that the American consumer has already delivered that message! It's just not being heard by inept management, greedy union bosses, and our lame duck President.

Seems like the "union" is a cancer to any company or institution. The bigger and stronger the "union" gets weaker the company or institution gets or even cause the demise of a company. Case in point, look at the UAW, it's responsible for making the domestic auto industry non-competitive with the foreign auto makers: this is due to UAW labor cost and legacy cost.  Also look at the teachers' union,   it's responsible for our school system to be almost at the bottom of world ranking: this is due to not being able to fire incompetent union-member teachers.   When organized labor think so much about  themselves and less about who they work for, they become "cancerous".  

stevo2525 "undereducated urban blacks. .  born and bred to embrace entitlements and govenment hand outs"  Are you kidding?  How is going to work at an auto factory getting a government hand out?  Don't blame the man on the line for the bad decisions of the CEOs.  And do you really thing embracing entitlements is a genetic thing, something one is born and bred to do?   

Good Grief is that before or after taxes?

I was a union member while going to high school and was earning $1.10 per hour paying the union $23 a month driving a '37 auto while the union rep drove a new lincoln.  I worked my butt off to keep my job while other older union workers didn't break a sweat but earning $1.30 per hour.

Whatever happened to paying workers based on their merit to have work ethics college or not?  Do you think the person having a college background works any harder or even less?  It's the metal of that individual and should be compensated thusly.

I eventually was earning over 6 figures a year based on my skills as a worker and not because of school or union.

If a worker wants more money then that person should earn it by performance and if that person believes someone owes him a living because he/she just show'd up that day isn't entitled to the job.  Competition breeds action and pay should be based on the performance just like an athelete is being paid for being good at what they do paid more for being great, paid less for not being as great.

Screw the unions that breed "you are entitled to be paid cause you belong to the union".  College affords you an education not always makes you a better worker and there are times one believes since he has this education entitles that person for more money, that's bs, it's the desire of that person and the desire to be better than the other guy who doesn't think he has to work harder and receives the same pay.

p.s. I went to college but it was after my 6 figures.

sicandtyred,

I understand your pain at the loss of jobs and your outrage at the inequalities, my brother.

But, believe me, if you step back and look at the policy choices (even if you could 'rewind and re-play another scenario' to roll back globalisation and open up broader policy options), you would find that the agenda for higher skills jobs, for widening income-gaps (but, human genius will engineer ways of palliating that nightmare) is the irreversible trend of history. That's not espousing the neocon/Francis Fukuyama end-of-history theory, but the hard reality.

If the Unions make what I call the 'smart move' now, they wil be able to make far, far more than the amount the cumulative amount they would have lost during the period of reform when they consented pay cuts. What's more, you would have accepted gracefully that these whizkids in the labs who are developing the 'smart materials' that would make the electric cars of the near future, recharged with technology that does not add to global warming, possible, receive the same type of enhanced rewards that you secured for yourself "  based on my skills as a worker and not because of school or union."

I agree that the sense of entitlement bred by the unions is disgusting.  It's just as disgusting when the corporate executives and management have the same idea - "I get a bonus no matter how unprofitable my company is."  This is the attitude shared by both worker and executive.  The bonus to executives is the golden parachute upon their termination.  The bonus to the worker is less hours, more vacation, getting paid after being laid off?!?!?  Both situations are equally unbelievable to those with common sense.

And Good Grief, the reason the comments on this post focus on unions and their workers is that the article we are commenting on is about that topic. 

The downfall of these workers is that their union has preached to them for decades that they shouldn't have to work as hard, as long, or as efficiently as the next guy - the non-union guy.  Unions, in their own minds, have become an end, instead of the means to an end.

And Good Grief, here's the thing: Anyone, including CEO's, who embrace the idea that they are somehow entitled to something, just because of their status (union membership or corporate executive status) will be passed by the competition.

Mr. MALLECK, you should re-introduce your self-imposed ban from these forums.  Nothing you've written makes any sense.

Good Grief....we want them to cut their wages so that they can remain in business and produce an affordable product that people will want to buy. I am a college educated person with two master's degrees. I make less than a UAW employee. My insurance program is no match for theirs, and I certainly won't reap the benefits of their retirement program.

C-O-M-P-E-T-I-T-I-O-N?!?

At least my name makes sense and is real!

Good Grief:

Regarding your statement that "There is no WAY you can justify someone without a college degree making more than $10/hr!"

That is one of the most elitist statements I have ever heard.  I'm sure Bill Gates would be happy to argue that thought process with you.  He dropped out of college and look where he is today.  Having a college degree does not guarantee productivity, innovation, nor creativity.  A college degree represents the fact that you had the tenacity to sit through boring and tedious classes for four years, give or take a year or two.  If a college degree was worth it's salt, all those Harvard and Yale boys on Wall Street would have created the mess we are in today.

I know many people, mostly entrepreneurs, who don't have college degrees and make mega bucks, simply because they keep their noses to the grind stones and work.  They have the ability to shift quickly when trends shift and their creativity allows them to dream up solutions to problems.  They do not sit at the foot of the government trough waiting for someone else to make decisions for them.  They are a productive lot of people, unlike the drones in government or the unions.

You need to read up on some of the hidden millionaires in America.  How about the guy who became a millionaire selling junk semi-truck parts?  He lives simply, doesn't have a college degree, and you'd never know by looking at him that he is a millionaire.  By your logic, he be making no more than $10/hr. 

Sorry, the more I think about your statement, the angrier I get.

Good Grief!!:

"There is no WAY you can justify someone without a college degree making more than $10/hr!"

Salary should be based on level of performance.  Some of the degreed people I have managed and had to work with were the dullest bulbs in the pack, with no concept of how to perform their jobs.  Conversely, some non-degreed folks I have worked with and managed shone like the brightest light out there.

A college education teaches one a certain social growing up.  As a manger, it tells me that you had the ability to stick to something for 4 years.  It does not tell me you can perform the job and it certainly does not make you more valuable than the person next to you with equivalent years of experience!

That comment is insufferable!

great post!!

Reading these responses shows me that either I wasn't clear in how I worded my post, or many of you misunderstood what I was saying. 

I was sharing the comments and arguments of those with whom I had debated this topic, they weren't my comments.  The union workers make, on average, $25-$30/hr + benefits, which I don't have a problem with.  Anyone who regurgitates the talking point of $70/hr wages doesn't do the research to know that figure includes retirement benefits for those already retired.

Let me makes this perfectly clear, while I believe the Jobs Bank should go, they should pay a bit more for their medical benefits, and they should institute a defined contribution retirement plan, I don't believe they should be the side to take the pay cut.  Management, from the CEO down to the lowest VP, should take the pay cut.

I have read many an article, and not a single one could state that UAW pay and benefits, past and present, account for more than 10% of the cost of any of their products.  That being the case, what percentage do executive packages account for?

That comment is insufferable!

I agree.  Again, I reiterate, those were not my comments, but those from people with whom I have debated this topic. 

Sorry, the more I think about your statement, the angrier I get.

Please, people, go back and read the original post.  The wording is very carefully done.  At no time to I state that they are my comments, and I attribute them to others for a reason. 

One last time, I don't believe the UAW should have to take any kind of pay cut, but perhaps they should give a little in the benefits and pension area.  What they can do about those already retired is beyond me.  I don't know if I could tell a 70 year old retiree that their pension will no longer be paid and they will have to go back to work.

Management is who makes the decisions.  Management couldn't see past the end of their nose and because of that they weren't able to handle the change in gas prices that we've seen in the last 18 months.

The point of my original post is that I just don't understand how someone can support the lowering of worker wage to that of Chinese and Mexican workers, yet support CEO salary and bonus packages.  And, I have debated people who don't see any problem with the BIG 3 executives making multi-million dollar salaries and bonuses, but still want the UAW worker to take a pay cut.

Danyel -

I feel your pain. I am also a person with two master's degrees.  The salary I was making at my present profession is a thing of the past.  The most I can hope for is a job that requires me to work in the office at least 10 more regular hours during the week for salary, and provide coverage without any compensation the rest of the hours in the week.  The salary will be the same, but I will lose many of my prior benefits in health care and retirement. 

The  average salary in the profession I had previously has been cut in half.

Both these professions have no unions.  Perhaps both of us should think about getting into a field that has one, before there aren't any left. 

Take heart, with the President's bail out loan package, no UAW retiree present or future will be able to reap their benefits either, that is how our President is going to drive the UAW into the ground.  The UAW has to take over all the retirement programs, and the money that they are being given to do this by GM is just "paper" (GM stock).

It is absolutely brilliant!  I give the UAW six months and then there will be no UAW and no retirement benefits for their members.   This might even cause several other unions to just roll up their mats and die too.  They have to know that they are next.  The man has a whole month to wipe them ALL out!!!!

And where does the UAW get its millions to contribute to the Democratic party?

From Lawyer Democrats!  

Do the research... the UAW has donated more to the Repulican party than the Dems.

Good Grief! the UAW has CAP committees that do little else other than raise money for the democrats and lobby!

Having served as a lobbyist for the UAW I am aware of the corruption that permeates the union from the top down to the shop floor.

The shop steward generally is the guy that has had the most problems with management, due to attendance or productivity issues. He has studied the contract with management and learned all the ins and outs. If he Has absolutely no morals and is a selfish leach, he can gravitate to the higher levels of union office.

I'm sorry. I'm not taking a paycut because other people are doing poorly. Call me unAmerican but I earn my money. I don't work for the UAW or the auto industry.

The CEOs should get no bonus and the management should be downsized. I work in a hospital, and when money gets tight they get rid of nurses, but continue to keep all the management that walks around, doing nothing but going to meetings and carrying clip boards. And the CEO still gets his big bonus. Crazy.

John, if you check you will see that the Canadian workers earn just as much as the US workers, and in fact the government there is about to hand the big three $4 BILLION in bailout money today.

Robby - the Canadian workers may get the same hourl wage - but I believe Canada has a National Health Care Program (no one needs to comment whether it is good or bad) - but my point is (and I am not familiar with this - saying upfront) - but could the "overall costs" for Canadian workers be less as the Companies do not pay for insurance? ---just asking and know that someone familirar with this will post.

Hedley,

The assinine work rules are mostly instituted by a group called OSHA. Ever hear of them? They are a government bureaucracy who makes up rules in response to someone getting injured or killed. Other things like in the commercials you see are a product of "ergonomics" which is a process where tasks are studied and new processes instituted to cut down on the number of repetative motion injuries.

I have been a UAW worker for 28 years and have never gotten over the protection given to employees who do not work. I agree that it is time to restructer the union workforce, it is way passed due. People don't change, or effect change, unlessthey have to. I saw an interview recently with the CEO of the Honda company in Japan. They followed his day: he takes the bus to work, eats in the companie's cafeteria with the workers, and makes the equivilant to $90,000. a year. When he feels the need to cut back to make his company more profitable he is the first to make personal cuts. The interviewer asked him if he knew what the Big 3 CEOs in America made as salaries, he did not. When they told him ($200 million+) he was visibly shaken then said "why does anyone need that much money?" If america needs to break the unions then so beit, but bring back the jobs we have have shipped overseas, put our youth to work, and teach the next generation they are not intitled. I am still driving my 1987 Honda Accord with 219000 miles and unless America can begin to infuse the quality into our products that foreign companies have my hard earned UAW money will be spent elsewhere.

Well, the Japanese society is a collective society. They all work for the better of the society as a whole, not just for their own personal needs. So that explains the mentality of the  Honda CEO.

But don't count on any jobs coming back here. Our role now is to consume. The powers that be want it to be a global economy and corporations will make much more profit for the big guys if they move overseas. We keep talkingabout "competitve wages"...well we will never be able to be competitive with China, India, Mexico and all the others as far as that goes.

If GM "fails", they won't disappear. They will just move all thier operations to their overseas plants and continue on there. Probably build larger plants and so on, elsewhere.

I would have to disagree with you, Honda, Toyota, BMW, KIA, and VW are all building new plants here and expanding in southern non-union states. The head of VW when asked why they went to TN, said because others are doing well in the south and there is no UAW.

Actually if Gm fails China or India will buy them up in an instant.  They have been looking for a way into this market for a long time and that will be the easiest way to do it.  Then all we will be left with is an all foreign auto industry.  That will drive auto wages even farther into the dirt.

gattes12....

The BUYER still has the final sayso.  If the system doesn't change, the only people buying US cars will be the auto workers.

gattes12,

Very good comment.

Hedley,

Great name!

why dont you go no down to Brazil and ship ford back to the US?  americans build the cars built in the south,,ford builds n Brazil...why dont you stop off in mexico and pick up some electrical componant factroies too,,,they are small factories put em in you trunk...

I get it, the (other) guys who arent union who make better cars, and only make 24$ and dont need 100 billion in TAXES should get kicked out,,the americans working at those plants have secure jobs becuase they arent part of a gang,,you guys blew it, you managment blew you...please fold and work at wallmart thy love unions..

Obama is right about one thing the tax payers will soon not really care       dont ask for tax money and say it isnt our bussiness,,and stop pretending that your junk is worth saving

gattes12,

My most humble apologies for pointing this out to you, but I think that you have got this wrong, my friend.

Did you miss the news that:

(1) The Canadian taxpayers are contributing more than their fair share to further the competitiveness of the American automotive industry through the plants these automotive firms have set up in Canada and, indirectly boosing the competitiveness of other vertically- and horizontally-linked American industries?   

(2) China is already making commercially viable electric cars?

(3) Even with American and other western shareholders of the Asian Development Bank having, for the past decade, used their voting power in that institution to block 'macroeconomic convergence' and the 'emergence of a Common Asian Currency', the ASEAN+3 Group (the Association of South East Asian Countries plus China, Japan, and South Korea) recently met to reinforce the Chiang Mai Initiative (a manner of delinking Asian monetary policy from America's and the West) and, soon after, decoupling of Asian economies from America's and the West. That would be bad for American workers as a whole, not for Chinese or other Asian workers.

I trust world policy mkers to do the right thing. And I think that President Bush did well yesterday. For once, however inevitable the decision he had taken, I felt like applauding the guy. 

Plants in Canada are going through the same January shut down as the US plants, and just like here the feds are bailling them out to keep them open with $4 Billion on top of what the US is giving to the parent companies.

robby-778896

Nope, Robby, you're wrong.

It is not the Fed that is bailing out Canadian subsidiaries of US car-makers. There is a public expenditure Bill that is to be voted when the Parliament resumes in January, to bail out the Canadian automobile industry.

More, the Canadian dollar is now worth less than 80 US cents, and, as you can imagine, Canadian wages that were set in good times to be in line with, though somewhat more competitive than, US wages when the US dollar and the Canadian dollar were at par, could not be increased in nominal terms when things were dire.

Therefore, Canadian auto workers have already taken quite  hit on their wage bill while working on the same tasks and achieving the same productivity as their US counterparts. This essentially amounts to a subsidy of sorts.

NAFTA is a very good deal for the US, just as globalisation is and will be even better after the current hiccups, although one hears a lot of gripes about jobs being lost.

When you restructure your production processes to higher-grade structures, no doubt there will be some frictionl unemployment while plant refurbishment and retraining take place.  

Robby - I wonder if the Canadian auto workers who will be off for a month will receive the 95% of their pay as the US Auto Workers will?

Mohamed,

All that explanation to defend NAFTA is pure baloney.  The bottom line is what matters here and it can't be more clear cut. 

The big three are an American Automakers.  The big three just asked for AMERICAN taxpayer dollars to sustain themselves. 

As I recall, if the AMERICAN taxpayers' dollars were not used to bailout the big three would fail.  Somehow I don't seem to remember where subsidies provided was to be a joint effort from the various countries.

Also the idea would not be to make the situation bad for Asia workers, just to improve the conditions here in the US (jobwise).  If there was any real concern with failure of the US auto industry then the ASEAN +3 would have stepped in to help out directly to protect their own interests. 

But then again, as I read it, they are having labor problems too.

As wrong as I am, try telling the average Joe and union worker who has lost his/her job overseas that they're wrong and NAFTA is good for them.

I find this part of the artcile absolutely amazing:

"'Keep Americans working'
In a statement, UAW president Ron Gettelfinger said the loan "will keep the doors of America's factories open, keep Americans working and prevent the devastating economic consequences for millions of Americans."

If they really wanted to "Keep Americans working", then they would insist that the foreign plants be closed or at least idled with those jobs brought home until stability is attained. 

I'm surprised that there has not been an uprising about the fact that there are planned plant closures and layoffs without the benefit of a jobs bank right here in the US throughout the next year while Mexican and Canadien plants are still operating and employing people.

Who and what is UAW president Ron Gettelfinger really fighting for?

Why aren't Union members, families, and auto industry supporters on these threads not in an uproar about this?

Stay tuned, they will be when they see what the restructuring plan is going to look like.

These statements are hilarious and really PROVE the problems with unions.  Obviously written by a Unionized employee.  Think about it for a minute....the Big 3 have been saying ALL ALONG that their labor costs were their biggest problem.  And they are RIGHT.  Look at the financials for ANY company and you will see that labor costs are the SINGLE LARGEST cost to any company.  Many other costs are not controllable by a Company.  Labor costs ARE.  Why do you THINK companies move their production facilities OUT of the US?  Could it be BECAUSE of the out of control cost of labor in this country?  The Big 3 started this mess back in the 70's.  They were concerned about the devastating effects of a nationwide strike and virtually capitulated to the Unions on their demands.  Now it has come FULL CIRCLE and those same capitulations are one of the PRIMARY causes of what you're seeing today. 

And the JOB Bank?   What a freaking joke that is!!  Please explain to me where a business is forced to lay people off because of a downturn in the economy is SAVING any appreciable amount of money when they are forced by the Union to pay that laid off employee NINETY_FIVE...yes, 95...per cent of their wages?   That is FREE money to someone who is not doing ANYTHING to help the company sustain profitability.   Get a grip....Unionized employees all have the same "entitlement" mentality that your president-elect has...you're all one of a kind.  You are not entitled to anything.  It is there for the taking, but you have to go out and EARN it.   

Examine what "made in America" really means.. a car produced by American workers, from mostly American parts for sale in America but foreign nameplate is a "foreign" car company because the profits go to that foreign country

A car made in Mexico or Canada, from mostly imported parts, but with an American nameplate is an "American" car... because the losses (not profits obviously) go to an American company.

Anyone see the hypocrisy of this? .. tell you what .. I would welcome ALL foreign car companies to open plants here - employee our workers and use parts from our factories ... and they can gladly keep their "profits" in their home countries...  in contrast to paying my taxes to bail out our "own" auto industry who actually makes most of their cars in a foreign country (yes folks - Canada and Mexico are NOT part of the USA) !

I drive a foreign car that is 90% made from USA parts and 100% assembled in America.. I bought my son an American car that has 45% made in America parts (engine - Korea, Transmission - China)  and was final assembly in Mexico ...  go figure!

Great comments, Derek!

Their employees got a bonus because their employers are not saddled with the costs that American auto companies are. Here auto companies have to deal with unfunded government mandates. In Japan, the government gives them money to help solve the issues.

Thanks BOB!  : )

CHEVSMARK.......I know that it may come as a surprise but, Kentucky is part of the United States. Read what the man said. Kentucky has the same unfunded federal mandates as Michigan. So does Tenn, Texas, Indiana, Alabama,and all of the other states (including OHIO) which have FOREIGN manufacturers in them.

GM has shut down the construction of the factory which was to produce the VOLT engine. The VOLT is the magic pill which GM touts as its' saviour. According to news reports the State gave GM tax incentives to build the plant to preserve (or create) jobs. How is that any different than what the states with foreign manufactures did? BTW these same states did not refuse to give incentives to GM Ford and Chrysler. The BIG 3 just didn't ask for fear of incurring the wrath of the UAW. Instead they moved to Canada, Mexico and Brazil. How AMERICAN.

GM did move to Canada, they have been there since day one, and CAW workers earn what UAW workers earn.

Perhaps if more people read the news, they know what they are talking about, and would not have got themselves in this mess.

Also on the matter of the matter of the volt, GM plans to produce 100,000 per year for the first several years, and the car is expected to be in the 35 - 40,000 dollar price range, so I would not hold my breath waiting for it to save the company.

They are not being very alturistic.. the volt engine is already in production in Austria.. where they use it in their high mileage european cars... GM just decided not to spend any of the investment money in the US as another fake example of how devestated they will be without a bailout and will import the engine from Austria when and if they enter and come out of bankruptcy  ... or actually decide to sell high mileage, but lower profit and lower cost to produce (ie: less UAW jobs?) here!

And I stress again .. this has nothing to do with ceo pay etc... it is about a corrupt corporate mentality on both the big 3 part AND the Union management part... get real folks... ever ask what a Union boss makes? all the way up the line from shop steward... you would be surprised... greed is greed... corruption is corruption ... they do not run unions for fun.. they run unions for making big bucks! can you say what it costs to lobby? sigh!

I understand what you're saying and agree. However, the reality is, with the cost of living in this country, we will never be able to have wages that are competitive with China and SE Asia. The new refining plant ebign built in India employs welders for $8/day. Try surviving on that here.....lol

Basically, what I see, is the New World Order is being implemented and our role in it, as the United States, will be to consume the products made elsewhere. Kind of scewed in their thinking, becasue with no good paying jobs, we can't afford to buy anything...lol

That was the plan originally, but now the plan is to have China and the rest of SE Asia consume the products, and we will make them.  This economic downturn will allow the government to lower the minimum wage to five dollars an hour or less (or maybe eliminate the whole idea of a minimum wage), and eliminate "entitlement" programs like Medicaid, Welfare, Medicare, and Social Security. 

If America is going to be strong again we have to cut all these regulations that hamper our businesses and make them want to manufacture things overseas.  With no regulation, there will be a truely free market and then Americans will really get paid what each American is worth.  It will be a real example of merit pay.